Datsun Roadster Forum-311s.org

I am a project manager by trade (PMP) and I have a 69 1600 matching numbers in excellent running condition. I rolled it out of a barn 3 years ago and its been running strong. So I'm ready to get a decent paint job on this runner and it raises many questions about the scope of what I should do. So, my approach is to develop a full project plan of everything that could be done, associate estimated costs and then make a final decision on scope. My thought is that I could publish the project plan for everyone to use as a resource and tie it to the parts wiki and other threads. So now I have two projects instead of one! But I think it would serve me and the community well.

I recall seeing a similar planning effort, perhaps not as grand in scope and I would appreciate any pointers toward prior work done on this topic.

I view the project plan as a decision tree with each branch adding scope and cost. Ultimately, I would plan to hope for the best and plan for the worst. There are known unknowns and unknown unknowns (the toughest) to build in.

So, I'm looking to start a dialog with whoever has any thoughts on this... both the planning and project itself.

I would chunk the major scope decisions (branches) as follows:
#1. Exterior only (not removing motor and transmission)
#2. Inside and Outside (removing internals and doing necessary work)
#3. Frame off (the full monty)

I hope to do a full WBS (Work Breakdown Structure) for each and I'm hoping for some input and suggestions. And then estimate each with clear assumptions.

There is so much I don't know but hope to learn through this process, but I know that there are some reasonable work packages/assumptions associated with the high level scopes mentioned above. Assumptions associated with above include:

#1. Paint, body, chrome
#2. above plus brake lines, mounts, and maybe some seals
#3. above plus ???

Thanks in advance,
Nathan

this is a great idea
I have a small list of frame-off costs I will try and find it
i can see the "tree" getting cluttered:
are estimated costs based on doing things yourself or paying for labor?


so this is what project managers get paid the big bucks to do?
I'm in the wrong line of work

I'm all ears and would be happy to provide review. I think it is important to define the scope - there is "just a paint job" restoration, and then there is mechanical restoration of the engine transmission etc. combined, with the body/paint/interior.

Your mention of brake lines for example, necessitates what is being done to the rest of the brake system, and if new brakes, why not new tires and wheels and on and on.

I think what you are proposing is a roadmap of "while I am here..." syndrome !!

I like it!

notoptoy wrote:
I think what you are proposing is a roadmap of "while I am here..." syndrome !!

I like it!

Ah! Yes sir! In project management land we call that "gold-plating" and it is highly frowned upon. But it also directly relates to quality (the 4th constraint - after time, cost, and scope).

So how do we draw the line between those items you would be crazy NOT to do and those which really are optional and which can be done later?

Alvin wrote:this is a great idea
I have a small list of frame-off costs I will try and find it

Cool!

Alvin wrote:this is a great idea
i can see the "tree" getting cluttered

Agreed. I would guess motor rebuild and transmission rebuild are out of scope. But as an example I could see a task called "check clutch" that links to a post about how to check wear on that part and another on how to replace it.... as an example

Alvin wrote:this is a great idea
are estimated costs based on doing things yourself or paying for labor?
P

My immediate reaction is to break it down into material (NOS) cost, estimated labor cost (clearly state an assumed labor rate and number of hours), and then a do it yourself estimated time in hours. That last item would have to be multiplied by a factor of at least 3 for someone like me!

Alvin wrote: so this is what project managers get paid the big bucks to do?
I'm in the wrong line of work

Ha! Perhaps:) I do know that I would be willing to pay for the plan if it was completed already as I envision it. I know for myself that I do not want to get into something thinking that I am doing #2 and end up with #3 unexpectedly. But I would enter into #3 if I knew the costs and assumptions, the right way to do it (according to a general consensus of subject matter experts) and I had a good idea of what the worst case scenario could be for a car that seems to work perfectly fine.

I think this is a great idea. How often do you see projects that people start and never finish cause they had no idea what it was really going to take money, time and expertise wise. In fact, I have one of those "project" cars waiting for when I get to it... the previous owner had over $12,000 into the car (yes, that's right, not $1200, and I got receipts) and burned out... I got it all for $3000 and sold off the rebuilt engine and trans and some other stuff for half of that...

Now you guys are going to take all the fun out of not knowing.


Richard

In a nutshell: 4k will get......got me full frame and susp.resto.With no skimping. Full gas KYB's,22mm Frt.sway,poly throughout,ball joints,fresh min. grade 8 fasteners all around, full gasket/seal kit for motor & trans, mounts for same

Natones wrote:

Alvin wrote:this is a great idea
I have a small list of frame-off costs I will try and find it

Cool!

Alvin wrote:this is a great idea
i can see the "tree" getting cluttered

Agreed. I would guess motor rebuild and transmission rebuild are out of scope. But as an example I could see a task called "check clutch" that links to a post about how to check wear on that part and another on how to replace it.... as an example
I disagree. If you are doing this as a service to the community than it should be included, the whole shebang. unless you are stating that the rebuild is out of your scope, for your project, I understand.
I know for myself that I do not want to get into something thinking that I am doing #2 and end up with #3 unexpectedly.

all the more reason to include every possible tangent. I really want to see what it would take in time, $, and skill to achieve frame-off, totally restored status. Then "totally restored-concours", then "totally restored-driver", etc. and everything in-between

TacomaBoy wrote:In a nutshell: 4k will get......got me full frame and susp.resto.With no skimping. Full gas KYB's,22mm Frt.sway,poly throughout,ball joints,fresh min. grade 8 fasteners all around, full gasket/seal kit for motor & trans, mounts for same

are the frame/suspension parts powdercoated? all work done by you?

Nathan, I agree, it could be very useful for decision making before the first dollar is spent. I do project execution, (and occasionally execute project managers) so I see the value of good estimating and the consequences of bad.

Add a password protected SPF feature. This automatically applies the Spouse Retention Factor to all numbers and reduces everything by 60% when the program is opened. Then entering the password puts the real numbers back on screen. It should kick in if the computer is left unattended for more than a minute.

I would suggest quantifying the jobs by hours and making the labor rate a plug-in variable, maybe 5 choices, Rate A, B, C etc, then one could be mechanical, another for body, and a third be DIY, at zero dollars. Rates vary shop to shop and by region. so you would have a line item, like remove engine, 2.5 hours rate "A" $90.00 hr =$245.00. Treat each rate like a subcontractor or vendor.
If you could also add a feature to be able to run a total by hours and dollars at each rate to see where the money is going and help determine which parts of the job are good to DIY.

You also may want to contact Scott Scheeler, he publishes the Datsun roadster book, and see if he may have a dealer labor/time guide in his library. This is a book from Nissan or Mitchell that gives the factory labor hour estimates for any and all jobs on the car, like remove engine, 2.5 hours add .5 hours to replace clutch etc.

Also, Michael Spreadbury (and others)may have some good insight on how to accurately estimate an engine swap, hours and dollars.

This is something kind of similar in the WIKIhttp://www.311s.org/pmwiki-311/pmwiki.p ... onDatabase

Wait a second, You cant micro-manage a project like this. You never actually know what you will run into. Case and point:I replaced all axel bearings and seals. Little did I know that some Jack Bass had changed the rears before using a cutting torch to remove the collars,leaving a not so pretty gash through part of my axel. Thanks Ted H. for the deal on the axel. Always plan for the worst.

TacomaBoy wrote:Wait a second, You cant micro-manage a project like this. You never actually know what you will run into. Case and point:I replaced all axel bearings and seals. Little did I know that some Jack Bass had changed the rears before using a cutting torch to remove the collars,leaving a not so pretty gash through part of my axel. Thanks Ted H. for the deal on the axel. Always plan for the worst.

You can't micro manage, but you can make realistic estimates before starting, at least to know the minimum needed.

My feeling is this . If you care enough to replace thrashed out ball joints for 700$ then you may as well change the pivots for another 180,well if your already there then get rid of the oem. already rotten rubber dust boots,may as well surface those rotors as long as threr off.For me.... I dont want to have to tear into it again,except for this winters KA swap. $ $ $

Yes, All work except for sandblast frame performed in my shop. If I did'nt rain so much in this state I'd invite ya up.