Best Flywheel & Clutch - last one you will buy!

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JT68
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Re: Best Flywheel & Clutch - last one you will buy!

Post by JT68 » Sun May 22, 2016 7:06 pm

We can also let the buyers decide, I'll build 7 more of the same exact FW for either plate type, Stock or 225mm, same price.

PM me if you want Stock 200mm or 225mm and are actually willing to put down a small deposit to make an order.

If the majority of people don't want the 225mm, I'll just scrap the project.

If you aren't actually willing to purchase one, there is no reason to discuss it further.

Thanks to all who have supported the project so far! Jim
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spyder
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Re: Best Flywheel & Clutch - last one you will buy!

Post by spyder » Mon May 23, 2016 8:31 pm

SLOroadster wrote:From someone who knows more than me. The 650 kg -20111 pressure plate is good for 250 hp plus 200 ft/lbs. the 240z style pressure plate is prone to self destruction like the Excedy versions because of the straps going on a tangent to the pressure ring. (Snip)

Will
Not trying to be a pain but this is the exact reason I stated upthread as to why I don't like the pressure plates with the straps on the outside edge. Don't push start the car with one.

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Re: Best Flywheel & Clutch - last one you will buy!

Post by JT68 » Mon May 23, 2016 11:45 pm

This is specific to the pressure plate manufacturer and not at all a limitation of the FW design.

I looked at a couple that I have used and new on the shelf.

One 68 that I parted out used a 240z OEM plate for a decade (belonged to my brother). The car lived outside and had too much rust to save, but the clutch never failed in over 100k miles (the rest of the car failed first lol....)

The Dakin that I had on my Solex 68 from 1998-2010 never failed in any way. It was thrashed. This car is disassembled for body off resto at the moment.

The Atsugi plate that I have does not use tangential straps.

If you are concerned about tangential straps, use a plate that doesn't use them.!

You guys are truly worrying about a non issue. There are literally 100's of thousands of pressure plates with tangential straps that way outlast roadster clutches. I just looked at a 1/2 dozen. The KA24 clutch uses them, the SR20 clutch uses them, The Z32TT clutch uses them, L28 etc. The failure rate must be in the .0001% range.

If you drag race, you ought to use a racing clutch. If you drive like a normal person any of these clutch designs far outlive a stock roadster clutch.

My real long term experience with the 225mm on a U20 is far better than any stock roadster clutch. That is real world data.

The 225mm is designed for significantly more power than a 200, so a 225 has a relatively easy life behind a U20 or especially an R16.

Besides, if the -20111 remains OOP, the price of those will go out of sight and the 225mm will remain a great (probably the best) option for 99% of owners.
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Re: Best Flywheel & Clutch - last one you will buy!

Post by fj20spl311 » Tue May 24, 2016 9:28 am

An additional comment on Tangential Straps....The larger plate has less stress on the straps by design.....i.e. they have more leverage.
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spyder
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Re: Best Flywheel & Clutch - last one you will buy!

Post by spyder » Tue May 24, 2016 9:54 am

I suspect at this point people will wonder it we are arguing about the number of angels on a pinhead but here goes.

" If you drive like a normal person any of these clutch designs far outlive a stock roadster clutch."

I don't know how most normal people drive but my experience over the last 30 years was I would wear out a normal clutch disk in about a year. The brass syncros would last about two years. Once I went to a steel syncro transmission, I haven't been able to wear them out. The kevlar clutch disk I replaced at five years still had most of it's meat left.

Image
EDIT: Looking at this picture I noticed the new disk has more wear surface on it,=how much longer will it last?

I googled Atsugi plate 225mm and on the first page the only one I saw that didn't have the straps is on the middle right of the screen, coincidentally, it is a roadster aftermarket disk.

Image

Could you please supply a part number or link to the disk in which you speak.

Thanks;
Phil

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Re: Best Flywheel & Clutch - last one you will buy!

Post by JT68 » Tue May 24, 2016 10:56 am

On the Atsugi, I only have the plate, no part number, but would be glad to look into it.

As I mentioned, ALL the 240 plates I have used have done beautifully with zero failures, strap or otherwise.

If 100,000 vehicles out there are using the design, I just don't see the issue since the failure mechanism for Z's,240sx,720 pickups is usually just worn out disc or bearing - normal failures.

In looking at the strap design, I can see two things that would probably kill it:

1.Missed downshifts during racing (which can break just about anything)
2. Aggressive use of "engine braking" ie down shifts and slamming out the clutch without matching engine rpms. (I used to engine brake when I was a kid until I realized brakes are a lot easier/cheaper to change than transmissions and clutches!)

If you are failing the stock clutch at one/per year - that is pretty extreme, but that is why I came up with the mod in the first place. The tangential strap has never been an issue for me with 240z,Z32, 240SX or U20.

For you guys who are this passionate about going strap-less, I'll be glad to see if I can find some extreme duty plates, but perhaps you should stay with the -20111 setup if it has you this worried, or you may want to go with some type of Tilton unit.

For the average roadster driver, OEM grade 225mm clutches should last a very long time.

jt
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Re: Best Flywheel & Clutch - last one you will buy!

Post by JT68 » Wed May 25, 2016 12:00 am

I was able to ID the strapless Atsugi, but I don't think it will help you much. Early first gen 240. It basically looks like a big version of the U20 clutch. Long OOP and superseded to the early 70's version. You might be able to find one pretty cheap somewhere if you look carefully.

I also saw a Sachs 240 plate that did not use straps (NLA) and an OS Giken $$$.

As I looked into extreme duty 225mm 240z clutches I noticed a few things:

Lots of Z guys also swear by Dakin/Exedy. Lots of good words about ACT and Clutchmasters heavy duty clutches.

Major criticism of CenterForce (Mirrors my experience.)

For Nissan, plates with tangential straps have completely replaced earlier designs. 225mm, 240mm and bigger, It has become the standard design for just about all Nissan NA and turbocharged cars from the 70's to now. Z31, Z32, 350Z All use straps.

In fact, the vast majority of ALL clutch plates now use the tangential straps. All cars, not just Nissan. Probably millions of cars or at least 100's of thousands. Overall, strap failures are rare.

There are Exedy,ACT and Clutchmasters units available in 225mm for 300-400hp.

If you break one of those with a normally aspirated U20, something else is very wrong. You should not need a 400hp clutch.

911's also run 225mm, so clearly the power handling capacity of that disc is a major step up from our stock design.

When used with the pressure plate of your choice, the 225mm is a huge upgrade over the stock roadster clutch. With normal use, it will literally last a decade.

One of the extreme duty 225mm clutches should be incredibly good for very hard use since they are designed for 300+ hp and there is almost no weight penalty.

Hope this helps! jt
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Re: Best Flywheel & Clutch - last one you will buy!

Post by JT68 » Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:31 am

Light Steel racing versions now available. - they are beautiful. Definitely Roadster Art.

Extremely high quality. Machined from a billet of chrome-moly steel....uses 225mm disc for high performance, higher HP and torque capacity and durability. Literally bullet-proof.

If you are looking for high performance, there is no other single straightforward modification you can do that will have as much of an impact on acceleration and driveability.

.5 lbs heavier than the old comp flywheel and far more rugged. (the original comp flywheel also tended to shed ring gears)

PM/email for additional information - great intro price for 311s// jt
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Re: Best Flywheel & Clutch - last one you will buy!

Post by JT68 » Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:40 pm

Here is a strapless design pressure plate if you prefer that style:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/for-Datsun-240Z ... yL&vxp=mtr

To me, it is a non-issue, but the price on this is hard to argue with!

Add a very high quality disc (about $100-150) and you have a clutch that that will handle more torque and power than the OEM plate can do. (designed for L26-L28 power)

If you are building a stroked/big bore monster U20 and planning to make even more power, I also have 750kg pressure plates!
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Daryl Smith
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Re: Best Flywheel & Clutch - last one you will buy!

Post by Daryl Smith » Sun Sep 04, 2016 4:37 pm

Asked in the quick question thread, but brought up more questions than answers, so asking in this thread, which will make it easy for others to find...
U20 flywheel attachment...washers or no washers? I started with separate pieces (crank/flywheel) with no bolts...
Aluminum flywheel....washers or no? Different torque specs from stock?

thks
Daryl
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JT68
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Re: Best Flywheel & Clutch - last one you will buy!

Post by JT68 » Mon Sep 05, 2016 12:11 am

ALuminum expands much more than steel, so the clamping load goes way up as the AL heats up.

Use the factory FW bolts. Suggest 48-52 ft-lbs w/ Blue loctite used sparingly. (The loctite acts as a lubricant while you are torqueing, so less torque is needed that the factory (dry) torque spec)

Do not ever exceed the factory torque spec. Only a little loctite on threads only.

The u20 crank has so many bolts they are not working very hard.

Always balance a new FW and pressure plate as an assembly. Washers are not needed. J
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Daryl Smith
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Re: Best Flywheel & Clutch - last one you will buy!

Post by Daryl Smith » Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:22 am

Thanks JT,
Everything balanced and ready to assemble.
Daryl
'66 2065cc Stroker "Frankie", EFI and GM D585 ignition
she aint pretty, she just looks that way...
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Re: Best Flywheel & Clutch - last one you will buy!

Post by Shamus980 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:27 am

I have a few gaskets to replace and an overall inspection of motor to do as well as some cosmetic stuff. Btw. I’m in awe if the pics you all post of your rides and engines. Very inspiring. Thank you JT for this advice. I wanted to check the clutch since i have to replace the rear seal due to minor seepage I observed when the car was up on the lift. This may be a good time to do this upgrade since it will be apart anyways. I wish someone can explain to me the easiest way to post pics on this site. I think if you all see the pics, i can get your advice on many advancements you all may have made in the past with these beauties. Thanks again JT. I will be looking for the parts to this 240 clutch upgrade. Shamus.
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Re: Best Flywheel & Clutch - last one you will buy!

Post by fj20spl311 » Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:48 am

Posting pictures is easy...LOL
open "Full Editor & Preview"
open editor.jpg
open "Attachments"



Select "Add Files"
Once you have your file
Select Place inline.
Your done
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Phil
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Re: Best Flywheel & Clutch - last one you will buy!

Post by TurboRagtop » Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:32 am

Pulling the engine is a big deal for me.
Just sayin...
Karl Payne, Tempe, AZ
Infiniti G35, '66 1600 w/2.3L Turbo Ford engine, FMIC, 2.5" exhaust, T-5 trans, EFI fuel tank (Thanks Michael Spreadbury)
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