An honest discussion about roadster values

[Datsa 66]

First off Sid, he did call me a name- he called me a liar.

Second, I DID bid the car to 3000.00. It was my maximum bid but because I was high bidder at 2650.00 that was the recorded bid.

Third, I would think that as long as you have known me you would support me over an anonymous person you don't know. In fighting over stupid crap only hurts the roadster community Sid, and yes it DOES matter.

I thought I could rely on you for that, but I guess I was mistaken.

My loss for sure.

[spl310]

I stand corrected. He did not specifically state liar, but he did say that it did not happen. Still, I don't think that name calling is appropriate in this forum. He was as wrong as you are on that count.

My understanding of Ebay is that the proxy bidding does not happen below the reserve price - meaning that if the reserve is $4000 and you bid $3000, your first bid shows as $3000. That may be a recent change, so yours could have predated that. As I indicated, I have no reason to doubt your offer of that amount. I was just stating what I found when I went and looked. If I am mistaken on the Ebay practice, then I stand corrected.

As a final note, I am not taking the side of Andrew or Guest. I am just trying to point out the facts that are apparent to me and to try to steer the discussion back to the topic at hand. This is not a popularity contest, but a forum to discuss Datsun related stuff. That is what I am trying to do. I am not attacking anyone, nor am I siding with anyone. If I am mistaken, then I will retract my statements as I have done here.

Andrew, since you have indicated to me off list that you are blocking e-mails from me, I cannot respond to the charges that you levelled against me. If you decide that you want to discuss your concerns with me, drop me a line. I am here and have no qualms about replying to you and discussing things in a civil manner.

We need to get this back on to the discussion at hand - values - and away from where it has diverted - personal assaults.

[Linusrp]

Continuing along Sid's attempt to move the discussion back to roadster values... I will mention that I purchased a non-descript (Pheonix, AZ) early 67 1600 roadster, not the 67 1/2 2000, not too long ago for $5K. And I have spent a great deal more to improve it. Crazy? Absolutely, just ask my wife. Will I ever get that out of it, not hardly, nor do I care because I have not spent the money or the time to turn around and sell it. The joy I get from driving around is worth every penny and then some. Isn't that why we restore them? If someone wants to make a profit, or even regain their 'investment', I strongly suggest an Austin or a Jag in the roadster line.
Everyone knows that very few cars retain their value unless there is a strong demand for a particular car. With that said, all the shortages of parts and scarcity of available cars doesn't make any difference if noone wants to buy these cars. Yes, we choose to buy them as a group, but this number is a small percentage of the people looking to buy classic cars or roadsters, and how many of us were/are willing to spend over $20K on a Datsun roadster? Most of us have looked to buy a roadster for under $10K, or considerably less if possible. And this is from a group of people that value and appreciate them. If we as a group are not willing to spend a lot of money for them, then how can we expect other people that have a more limited interest in them to react. We as roadster owners have to shoulder a small part of the blame also, like it or not.
I mention this because of the issues surrounding Andrew's investment. He has choosen to spend money on his car and someone else has chastised him for this. If 'we' want the value of these cars to increase than it seems to me that we need to let as many people as possible know the costs involved with buying and maintaining them. This goes hand-in-hand with driving them so more people take notice. If these things happen I believe over time fewer people will try to buy a roadster for under $5K. Maybe I'm way off here but that's how I see it. Twice in one day, now I'll shut up.

[DELETED]

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[spl310]

Linusrp - you have mirrored what I have posted on the Roadster list a couple of times. Folks sent me notes saying that I am off my nut, but they are the same ones that play down the Roadster's value. Now, I know that everyone has learned the mantra of buy low and sell high and we all would love to do that if we could. A lot of Roadster guys are on tight budgets, but that should not drive the values down. The perception of value is the biggest driver. It used to be that you could buy a ratty but driveable Austin Healy 3000 for $1500 and it would not raise an eye. Try to do that now. I have a friend that once bought an XKE for $1500. It was a decent driver that needed brake work and cosmetics. Try to buy one of those now.

Now a lot of folks will chime in that those cars have pedigrees. That is not the sole driver of value. They have a perceived value that is higher. The owners are holding out for more and the buyers are coughing up more.

I know of damned few people that have very little tied up in their roadsters. Those that do have a LOT of sweat equity in them. I have only known a few that kept track of how much their car cost them. Most were embarassed by the figure and stopped counting. After all, these are typically toys for weekend enjoyment. (there are expceptions to everything, so no need to send the notes that yours is a daily driver)

The sad reality is that if we don't perceive our own (and other owner's) Datsun Roadsters as valuable, then we won't see them go up in value. We will continue to see them chopped for parts and left to rot. I am picking one up tomorrow that fell victim to that fate. It is a 67.5 with a 2000 motor. No, it does not have the pedigree, but it would have been just as much fun. The owner let it sit where flowing water went under it 24 hours a day. A once decent car is now a rust pile...

[Guest]

I'm scared to post this! I am a roadster rookie in most areas, and will never dare to hide my ignorance. However, I read all the postings in this topic, and in all but one or two, I read things I agree with. So I will arm myself with humble courage and contribute to the discussion.

Not long ago some of us had an exchange about where we are now, and who we owe this to. It is obvious that things ARE happening and that individually, manufacturers, retailers, or owners didn't do it all. We all assist, depend on, and work together.

I got my '68 1600 Roadster in February of 2003 for $500.00. It was a resto project aborted due to "the wife factor", so most of the disassembly job was done already. As I went through the many plastic bins, zip-locks, boxes, and bags I couldn't appreciate what I truly had in my garage. Once I found all the vendors, owners, enthusiasts and this forum, things started to change. Then every time I went through the same bins, zip-locks, etc. more and more treasures were discovered. I went from "what the hell is that for?" to "Oh my God, that's the original__________! And it still works!"

I have restored every component of this car piece by piece trying to preserve as much of the original parts as possible. With the exception of the water pump and the obvious seals, seats, gaskets, etc. etc., there are no added, modified, or "invented" parts anywhere. Still, in a year I managed to spend about $3,000.00 between the "obvious", machinist, TOOLS, tools, tools, buying again the new seals that I broke while installing...... So I wonder: Does that means that my car is worth $3500.00" Should i add the wrench time value? The answer to these questions is clear: I HAVE NO CLUE

Perhaps I should sit down with Rallye's, Dean's, and all the many vendor's catalogs and add up the cost of all the parts needed to build a whole new car! But that wouldn"t be a restored car but an aftermarket clone! There would be no "nostalgic" or "preserved" value!

The key to the popularity and high appraisal value of classics like the Corvette, Mustangs, and the ones with "pedigree" is not how better, how beautiful, how available, or how much business they support. These are important and fundamental considerations, but all these would be useless if there wasn't an organized group of individuals that through years developed the "standard" for their prefered model. This structured set of standards allowed the boom, and not the other way around. What make classics be "classics" is how they defied time and remained "undisturbed".

However, with growth came the OVER-commmercialization, the competition(not the fun one though) and the loss of "nostalia-driven hobbie" led to a slow down in thrill, excitement and FUN!. I would never even consider selling my car once I finish it! It would be like giving up for adoption a baby I carried in my "garage-womb" for a year!

I must point out that everyone who owns a Roadster at some point in time wondered "How much is my car worth?". Both, Rallye's website and this forum, have this inquiry as one of their "FAQ"! With this, I intend to say that everyone amused by the heated exchange of words shouldn't sign off without sharing their insight on the VALUE issue. After all,it's knowledge, experience, and good ol' fashioned exchange of opinions what eventually shape up into a set of objective standards of appraisal.


But how proud we are of our creation, our achievement and our possession should be respected. Those who are tired of someone else's references to their proud possession should skip the lines, not charge them. Specially if they have NOTHING to contribute or to bring to the forum.

If we believe that a particular car is not worth the price on it....don't buy it! Saying that a car is worth $XXXXX doesn't make the car worth that. It's the price you are willing to pay what gives the value.....and what you will be willing to pay should be based on a set of uniform standards like the ones I mentioned above.

I said a lot, I hope I don't get anyone upset, and I hope some sense can be made of my two-finger typed thesis!

PEACE MY FRIENDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jorge

[S Allen]

Jorge, no offense taken by your take on roadster values. You never get out of a project all that you put into it. Parts is a only part of the equation. Blood, sweat, and time add up too! Whether you do it yourself or have it professionally done. It is just like anything else if the right buyer comes along you may make out like a bandit but the chances of that happening are highly unlikely in my opinion. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I have not met too many people that did not like the look of a roadster and the thumbs up when you are on the road is kind of cool. The rare 63/64 three seaters and 67.5 2 liters command the most money as the market stands right now. These cars were not well known when they were produced and the numbers will only dwindle as the years pass. That is probably why a bone stock car will some day be more valuable than say the tricked out SR20DET conversion or the stroked 2 liter. All of the cars I have were headed for the scrap pile until I came and rescued them. None of mine are stock and I really have no desire to have a bone stock roadster. I am glad that there are some that have that desire but it just is not me. I do not plan on selling mine any time soon either. I care less about their value and more about the personal pleasure I get from driving the snot out of them on a twisty Sonoma County backroad! Plus the fact that I brought them back from certain doom.

Steve

[DatsunBucky]

Thanks, but I'll be in Vancouver BC that weekend. My son earned a free trip for two through his work, and I rarely pass up a free anything.

[millertime]

Recently I bid on a an ebay car that I thought was a good candidate for a regular "daily driver" roadster. I love my 67.5 2000 and it is not a garage queen, but I want to keep it in pristine shape and still be able to drive the canyons with all the dust and rocks they have. Anyhoo, I bid the car to 3000.00 which I thought was a good price as this car was a good runner with tired paint, dings and who know the condition of the body, engine, brakes- whatever.

It did not make reserve and so it did not sell. The owner emailed me and said he would take 4000.00 for the car. I wrote him back and said I could only offer 3000.00. I never heard from him again. We all saw the fire damaged care on ebay with the 5k asking price and such. People have asked me what I think my newly restored 67.5 2000 is worth and although I know it is worth 25-30k I also know I would not have a prayer to get that much for it.

I recently went to www.nadaguides.com and looked up the price for our cars. Without fail, the high retail tops at around 6-8k for our cars. As much as we would like the marquee to come up in value, I think the true value of these cars is our love for them, not their intrinsic value.

I am still looking for a good driver to buy and I will still keep my budet of 3000.00. I guess it may take a while


Andrew Murphy
SRL311-00489 (Not for sale at any price below six figures)

In defense of Andrew. By E-bay standards of bidding he is correct in regards to bidding. If his Max bid is $3000.00 and the seller's Reserve is set at $4000.00
Bidder bids 2500.00
Andrew auto bids 2600.00
Bidder bids 2650.00
Andrew auto bids 2700.00

This till Andrews max bid is reached or a max bid meeting or exceeding Reserve price is met.


Andrews bid will only get pushed up only by another bidder.
If anyone's max bid hits reserve price it auto's to that amount.

By the way why even bother with all the accusations Guest?
Therapy is in order I think.

As to discussing Money spent on a car you have invested in.

Who the Freak Cares who says what about their cars. We all have our soapbox and soab stories here.
Don't want hear it? Don't read it.
Some Race, some are casual drivers, some are street racers. we all are different here with different ideas about hows these cars should be ran.
Period.
Lighten up Guys Solvang is almost upon us dont let these NumNuts get to you.

How much is my car worth ? lol Whatever somebody is willing to pay for it. Wait till they find out what they have to pay for a piece of rubber for a side vent. OUCH !! Trim ? or down payment on a Honda.

Take care
Derek

[Datsa 66]

Folks, I agree it is time to bury the hatchet on this issue (although some of you may want to bury it in my head by this time)

My interest in these cars is of course the fun in driving and the social outlet, but more so in increasing the car's marquee value. I think they are undervalued and I think we have no one to blame but ourselves for this. I want to see the cars recognized for the classics they are and I have worked tirelessly to try and get them press coverage in multiple media markets.

Everyone seems to think I am only proud of the money I spent on my car. I am far more proud of the sacrifices I made to keep the car on the road then the money I spent. I found the car sitting in a pile of garbage and it had not run in five years. I took the time (and money) to restore the car to its former glory. I bring up the topic of money to try and convince people that it will take INVESTMENT in our cars to get them to bigger shows and more public awareness.

Now I also know that some people are not interested in what I am interested in and want to do engine swaps and make racers and daily drivers and such. I think that is fine. It's their car and they can do what they like with them. I want to eventually get the cars on a point system and get them entered into some marquee shows. That certainly does not mean everyone else will fell that way.

It is just my opinion and I support this forum for allowing me my opinion. What I do not support are public personal attacks on me for my opionions. I repsect anyone's opinion-even if they are diametrically opposed to mine. All I ask is that we respect each other and take it offline if it gets personal.

So my message is: invest what it takes to make your car worthy to be seen with established marquees and establish one of our own that is recognized as one that can stand next to any other. I invite debate and rebuttal to that- infact I embrace it.

Just keep the personal stuff off line and I think we can all get along better.


Andrew Murphy
1967.5 2000 Solex
SRL311-00489

[dat68s]

Hi Everyone,

Since we now seem to be back on the topic at hand I throught I would weigh in and agree with whoever it was that said, "it's worth what someone is prepared to pay for it." I all honesty that is when you realise (or not) the true value of anything that you want to sell. I think if you don't want to sell, ever, then the true value to you is priceless. It does not matter what you have spent. This holds true for anything, not just Roadsters.
My interest in this topic stems from the fact that I am currently considering buying from a guy in Japan, who is a friend of a friend, a 1964 roadster that has been fully restored. It has had some changes made to it (it has a H20 with solexes and disk brakes, and from the photo's looks like brake booster as well). The things I am considering in this are, what is the real value of this car, it is mostly original, with some enhancements made that I would consider anyway. It looks like it is in tip-top shape, they guy wrote to me and has e-mailed me scanned inspection reports (which are in Japanese so I can't read) but at the end of the day I have to decide what is this cars value? I can only afford to own one, so if I purchase this one, the one I currently have has to go. My current ride needs a fair amount of work to be done to it. Mainly with regards to bodywork and trim. I don't mind the project of doing it, in fact I enjoy it and get satisfaction out of it, but when the harsh light of reality hits me, I mostly enjoy the driving.
So the difficulty for me is one of dollars, and sense! Do I continue with the project and spend a considerable sum of money and time and effort with the car off the road to restore it, or do I leave that to someone else and take the easy way out and buy (with all the risks associated with that) one that is fully restored already?

As you can see from this long winded post, I have created quite a dilema for myself and it's not easy... So to me the value of the cars is relevant to me but only because I am trying to work out what I am prepared to spend....

Well folks just my take, and I would be happy to share the photos of the car in Japan so that people could comment on what they would pay for it... not that it matters to me, because this is a personal choice!

Cheers everyone!
Stuart

[Guest]

Folks, I agree it is time to bury the hatchet on this issue (although some of you may want to bury it in my head by this time)

My interest in these cars is of course the fun in driving and the social outlet, but more so in increasing the car's marquee value. I think they are undervalued and I think we have no one to blame but ourselves for this. I want to see the cars recognized for the classics they are and I have worked tirelessly to try and get them press coverage in multiple media markets.

Everyone seems to think I am only proud of the money I spent on my car. I am far more proud of the sacrifices I made to keep the car on the road then the money I spent. I found the car sitting in a pile of garbage and it had not run in five years. I took the time (and money) to restore the car to its former glory. I bring up the topic of money to try and convince people that it will take INVESTMENT in our cars to get them to bigger shows and more public awareness.

Now I also know that some people are not interested in what I am interested in and want to do engine swaps and make racers and daily drivers and such. I think that is fine. It's their car and they can do what they like with them. I want to eventually get the cars on a point system and get them entered into some marquee shows. That certainly does not mean everyone else will fell that way.

It is just my opinion and I support this forum for allowing me my opinion. What I do not support are public personal attacks on me for my opionions. I repsect anyone's opinion-even if they are diametrically opposed to mine. All I ask is that we respect each other and take it offline if it gets personal.

So my message is: invest what it takes to make your car worthy to be seen with established marquees and establish one of our own that is recognized as one that can stand next to any other. I invite debate and rebuttal to that- infact I embrace it.

Just keep the personal stuff off line and I think we can all get along better.


Andrew Murphy
1967.5 2000 Solex
SRL311-00489

Well now that the dust have settled.

First of all to Sid, I know that you werent taking sides on this but I want to thank you for noticing what you did.
I didnt come on this forum to attack the car or the money that Andrew spent . All I wanted to point out was that his constant metioning of money is not only annoying its also disrespectful.
I didnt get into this hobby to constantly see someone talk about how much money they spent on their car.
But I see that everytime someone points this out to andrew, he just throws a trantrum calls whoever that person is all kinds of names and acts like he is some kind of victim, then says that he doesnt have to wasted time and puts that person in some filter lists.

I remember someone on the datsun mailing lists asking who andrew was and why does he always talks how much he spents on his car. Before you know it , andrew was on a rampage talking about how he had to do some many things to get this money for his car. Well I think a lot of people here had to do lots of things to get their cars to where it is now.

And I always see andrew talk about marque this marque that.
Well if you really want to improve the marque, maybe you should have restored your car the way they done in the factory. But I know thats your car and you can do whatever you want with it.
But maybe if you are really serious about it, you shouldnt have painted your engine red, or painted you dash pink , stuff like that.
But its your car, its nobodies business if you want to it that way.

Secondly I apologize to others that got caught up on this, its only
a comment and an observation.

Again Thanks Sid for noticing

[Datsa 66]

The problem I have with you is that:

1) you are still remaining anonymous which tells me that you are not standing by your convictions about me because you know they are personal feelings and have no place here. You also know that you cannot post your name because to do so would implicate you in making false statements about me- which you did.

2) My "tantrums" were in response to personal insults. Calling me a liar is an insult and you did just that. Funny you are not talking about me making anything up now although I see no apology

3) This is a public list and you are making PERSONAL accusations and observations. If you were a man and had written me off list and signed your name I would have been happy to discuss this with you, but you didn't- you cowardly sent it to a public forum anonymously thereby taking no reposibility for your remarks. When anyone wants to make it personal I make it personal. I don't care about being politically correct and I don't care about offending anyone. I will not lay down and sheepishly let those things pass. If you bring personal feelings to this forum then I will stomp your cowardly butt.

4) And this is my last post on this manner. If you truly feel you need the last word on this manner become a man and post your name. We can at least agree to disagree and then never have anything to do with each other again. I do not need to be liked by people on this forum but if you do not respect me here I will not respect you.

Why you waste the time worrying about my attitudes is beyond me. I am sure plenty of people on this list think I am a pretentious snob but because they do not know me they do not presume to post in a PUBLIC forum designed to talk about cars. I do not care for many people on this forum either but because it is a PUBLIC forum I would never dream of voicing those opinions in this PUBLIC forum. The fact that you do so means you have no class and no backbone. Someone I would not care to know anyway.

Good bye and good riddance.

Feel free to anonymously post your response.


Andrew Murphy

[millertime]

Its just so Sad. so so sad. Cant we all just get Along?
Donuts? anyone ? Prozac ?
The Lurkers must be laughin their asses off

[Guest]

We're really gonna have to organize a Happy Hour in Solvang.....Andrew and "Guest"........yours are ON ME!!!!!!!!