Last minute pre-paint suggestions?

[Skyman]

My car goes in next Monday for paint. I have roughed it in body wise. Filled in body trim holes and grove. Have sanded the entire car. Everything is out of the car. (Interior, dash, etc.) Including all trim. I have masked off the frame, rear springs, engine, trans, etc.. I could not find a shop that would paint it off the frame. I had a hard time finding anyone who would paint an entire car! My question is, any advice on what I may have missed? I know many of you have done the same thing, and I would love to learn from YOUR mistakes. The shop will finish the body work and do the paint. I will be responsible for fitting doors, hood and deck lid. I am sure you all will hear from me then also. I can't believe after two and a half years I am getting to the home stretch. Tnanks in advance.

Kyle

[exit64]

First, is this a Maaco type paint shop or a real body shop? If it is a blow and go, give every guy that works on the prep a $20 bill for beer before they get started and tell them there's one more just like it at the end of the job if it comes out straight. Then slip the manager a $50 and tell him the same thing. That little bit of grease goes a long way in the end result.
If it a shop, get everything in writting as to what they are going to do in the way of prep. It will give you an idea as to what kind of paint job you are going to get for your money. One thing that I do is what until Sept. for paint. That is a slow time of year for the body shops around here. No wrecked cars from snow and ice and the summer rush is winding down. It takes some of the pressure off the shop to hurry and get the job finished to get on to the next one.
You get what you pay for when it comes to painting a car. The materials to do it right are pushing $1500 so keep this in mind when you look at your bid. Ask around and get references. Word of mouth is the best advertising you money can't buy. Good luck and post some pictures.

[Skyman]

Well, my options were a bit limited. Out of 20 or so shops I contacted, only three would consider doing the job. They make too much money on collision repair, they won't even consider a job like mine. This is not a Macco type shop. When I have been there talking with the guys they have had a 72 Chevy truck painted in green and white. It was a resto project. Looked very good. Also an early 911 Porsche, an Alfa and a late 90's BMW 7 series. They will have a "slot" in the shop for my car. They will have it for about two weeks. The initial bid, based off photos, was $3,000 - $4,000 for a two stage job. The other shops said they would not touch it for under $10,000. Sounds to me like they just did not want the job. They say they loose their asses on resto projects. I also have a buddy who has a friend who has painted a couple of cars in the past. But I have put too much into this to risk a botched paint job from someone I have never seen work from.

Kyle

[exit64]

Kyle,
That sounds like a decent price. Good to be able to look at other cars and see the quality of the work. I just had my 1967 Mustang CVT painted and it was at 7K and that was a deal because I am friends with the owner of the shop. I am looking at around 5K to do the roadster as I am going frame off with an SR20 setup. These hobbies get expensive fast, don't they?
Mike

[Linda]

Here's 2 places to go for some interesting info on paint, prep, even on a budget:
http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/sho ... =0#2331682
http://www.autobody101.com


Linda
68 1600

[dbrick]

Everything Mike said about the tipping really works. It's all in how much the guys doing the work really care. My only suggestion would be to bring them any part, an old door, trunklid, etc, and ask them to spray a test piece. Be 100 percent sure on the color and the finish quality on the test part. Or have them spray the trunk or hood first and you check it. If they won't do it, I would have second thoughts.

Not that it's close enough for you to use, but there's a Maaco out here by me, in New Jersey, that does old cars. I've seen his paint jobs on 3 cars, all cost under $3000.00, all were large cars, 70 Buick GS, 73 Laguna and I think a 72 Chevelle. They were parked next to cars with $10,000.00 paint jobs, I couldn't tell the difference.
Go to a local car show, ask everyone with good paint who did it and how satisfied were they that's where I saw these cars. People like to pass on a good painter, especially if they are proud of what they got for a low price.

[DatsunDave]

If I can add a suggestion...

Most importantly, before you take the car to them you have to make that the car as absolutely perfect as you can get it because they charge you money to fix things. Your labour is free.
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After you are convinced you have done all you can, I would ask them to let you sign off on the various stages before they proceed to the next. Be upfront with them about how this will work and get it in writing.

Be clear on your expectations before you agree to let THEM work on YOUR car. YOU are giving THEM YOUR business. They are not doing you a favour. If you have that mindset you will end up happier.

The two key stages I recommend you pay particular attention to are the guide coat and the clear (if you are doing a two stage paint).

I strongly suggest you keep tabs on them during the guide coat process (of you haven't done this yourself already...not clear from your first post). You can then be 100% sure that every last miniscule imperfection is done before they apply colour.

I would also go over the car meticulously after the colour is done before they apply the clear. If you find things before the clear goes on they can be fixed. Much harder and much more expensive to do after the clear goes on.

[Skyman]

Thanks everyone for the input. Your points are very well taken. I have always been a fan of dropping some cash or a twelve pack before a project. I did it with the guy's that did my engine work. Ended up staying there late tipping a couple back one night. After that, they would call me up and say we're balancing your crank, wana come over and see how we do it? It was cool. Watching them do the clay moulding of the head for my pistons was more cool. Anyway, thanks again, Monday is approaching fast.

[EScanlon]

As the new guy I hope I don't step on too many toes....

I worked at a body shop years back, and thankfully did not have to work for "time" work. We were paid straight hour wage regardless of how long the job took. Since the manager of the shop had previously owned and operated a CUSTOM body shop, he taught me a lot of tips and techniques that saved a lot of time and money.

Unfortunately, most bodyshops today are ruled by the infamous Motor time study book that details how much time certain repairs should take, and the bodymen are paid according to THAT and not to how long it took them to do the actual work. This translates into the bodyman looking to find any and every way he can to cut time out of the job. It is the ONLY way he can make "incentive" pay, that is get paid for more than the rated standard. Even more unfortunate is the customer...he has to accept what he can get or find another shop. Our cars, due to their age are totally anathemic to this style of bodyshop.

With older cars, the parts are simply not there to just buy a replacement fender, hood, door or other item and slap it on. Additionally, the time "standard" is long gone or it is simply not known if there ever was one. That translates into outrageous estimates for you as the customer, and worse yet, very poor completion date fulfillment rates, without going into the fact that few shops accept our kind of work.

Add in that many of us would like to save $ and have it done quickly and you have the recipe for someone being very disappointed.

As I've said on CZC:
CHEAP - FAST - CORRECT ... Pick TWO!

Sadly, this is almost a given when it comes to bodywork. And even more so with our cars.

The best thing to do is to have the manager of the bodyshop detail what they plan to do, how they plan to do it, and what time frame they plan to do it in. The greased palms are an excellent incentive, as well as the visits to the shop. Work within THEIR time schedule and constraints, and they will work it as fast as they can, correctly and at the most beneficial $ amount for you AND them. Rush it, demand lower $, or nit-pick processes you may or may not understand or know anything about....and you're asking for problems.

Asking to "sign off" on each and every step of the project...well, you just added a stopping point at every step...NOT the way to get them to cooperate. Your car's work now becomes an obstacle course with you as the obstacle.

Besides, if you know what and how each step is done and when it's correct, why are you paying someone else to do it? Then again, if you don't know what and how to do the job, then how are you going to judge a work in progress?

Looking at other cars they've worked on is an excellent method of comparing what to expect. Better yet, ask the owners of the cars what they thought of the job and most importantly, what they wished would have been better. That will be your best source of information.

While this may be too late to help you, with Monday coming up soon, you may still be able to talk to the manager and express your doubts and let him clear them up for you. Heck, he might even invite you to walk through the shop so you can look at the other jobs and ask questions of the guys working there.

But, as a final comment, nobody likes to have someone standing over their shoulder watching them work. If you make it seem as that is what you plan on doing...well, good luck.

FWIW, and apologies if I've been too blunt...
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[DatsunDave]

I agree with everything you said except on two points but my take is only a slight variation on what you have said.

The best thing to do is to have the manager of the bodyshop detail what they plan to do, how they plan to do it, and what time frame they plan to do it in. The greased palms are an excellent incentive, as well as the visits to the shop. Work within THEIR time schedule and constraints, and they will work it as fast as they can, correctly and at the most beneficial $ amount for you AND them. Rush it, demand lower $, or nit-pick processes you may or may not understand or know anything about....and you're asking for problems.

I agree

Asking to "sign off" on each and every step of the project...well, you just added a stopping point at every step...NOT the way to get them to cooperate. Your car's work now becomes an obstacle course with you as the obstacle.

I definitely agree that one shouldn't be hovering over the shop and asking to sign off on each and every step. But I do think it is reasonable to sign off before the colour goes on and then again before the clear goes on. A ten minute visit to the shop at those stages shouldn't be too intrusive.

Besides, if you know what and how each step is done and when it's correct, why are you paying someone else to do it? Then again, if you don't know what and how to do the job, then how are you going to judge a work in progress?

As you mentioned in your post, shops have a habit of taking shortcuts. Having a shop do the work instead of doing it on your own is a choice people make for all sorts of reasons. In a lot of cases with people like us the lack of a suitable location and tools to do the work is a major reason. Granted for some it is skill but it doesn't take a lot of know how to see where a shop is about to spray paint over rust they haven't removed because they want to take a short cut.

Looking at other cars they've worked on is an excellent method of comparing what to expect. Better yet, ask the owners of the cars what they thought of the job and most importantly, what they wished would have been better. That will be your best source of information.

Agree, excellent advice before selecting a shop.

But, as a final comment, nobody likes to have someone standing over their shoulder watching them work. If you make it seem as that is what you plan on doing...well, good luck.

I agree but as I said earlier, signing off before the paint goes on shouldn't be taken by the shop as "watching them work". If approached correctly, this can be an effective quality control and ass covering technique for both the customer and the shop. Having the owner sign off before the paint goes on gives them assurances that the prep was done well and at the same time it allows the shop to put the onus on the owner to say the prep is "done" before the colour goes on. This gives the shop recourse if the owner wants to complain later about the prep.

[EScanlon]

...snip...I do think it is reasonable to sign off before the colour goes on and then again before the clear goes on. A ten minute visit to the shop at those stages shouldn't be too intrusive.

I do and don't agree with you here.

While this may seem like a totally unobstrusive "check", it may be very problematic.

Some of the products in use today, have specific windows of time within which other steps CAN be taken without incurring additional work. Toss in a mandatory sign off when there's a tight window of time and who pays for the additional work involved if the sign off is not done within those parameters?

Certain paints only allow a few HOURS of time for a clear to be applied, and then only after a specific "set" time for the paint. If you miss the window, you now have to wait yet another length of time before you can do the additional work, which is REQUIRED before you can continue.

At which point should the check be done? Right after the process when you can't touch the car; after the window of time has elapsed...because you showed up late, or couldn't make it; or after the additional work needed because of the missed window of time? All of these are ... stumbling blocks. If you do insist on this, be prepared for an added labor cost to be included....just in case.

Just in case the car needs to be wet-sanded to accept the clear coat, and just in case it requires a re-coat of color BEFORE you can clear coat for the color to show properly (metallics are prone to this). Both of these are additional time and material that must be expended....at whose cost?

As you mentioned in your post, shops have a habit of taking shortcuts.

I was referring to "production" style bodyshops. These are the ones that prefer insurance work because it is in those short cuts that they can make a lot of money.

Insurance work is most often paid after review of charges by the insurance company. This is a very similar process to what goes on with medical billing. Ever gotten a bill from your doctor's office for amounts that your insurance carrier felt were excessive? While bodyshops don't (yet) do this, there are limits to what your insurance will pay. And this is also why the bodyshops look for those "short-cuts" so that there is enough padding in the bill so that a loss of one charge is absorbed by another.

The type of work our Roadsters, and other classic vehicles need is decidedly NOT production work. Hopefully your careful selection of bodyshops will have avoided these shops.

You're looking for the Craftsman Body Shop. The shop where QUALITY and REPUTATION are the primary product. These guys will not only ASSURE you that they're doing a good job, you will know BEFORE they start that their work is both craftsman quality and has a reputation to live up to. You'll have spoken to satisfied owners, you'll have seen finished vehicles and have satisfied yourself that what you will be paying for is in fact, what you will be receiving.

...it doesn't take a lot of know how to see where a shop is about to spray paint over rust they haven't removed because they want to take a short cut.

You're absolutely right.

However, if you're worried that the shop you're doing business with MIGHT do this, then you didn't find a quality shop, and everything I've said regarding having to monitor their progress and work goes out the window.

At this point, I heartily agree with everything you've said. This shop would require careful scrutiny...heck even reporting to the local chamber of commerce. I would literally camp myself IN the shop .... actually no, I just wouldn't do business with this type of shop. If I left their business with the feeling that they might be prone to doing this, my car would come with me.

Having the owner sign off before the paint goes on gives them assurances that the prep was done well and at the same time it allows the shop to put the onus on the owner to say the prep is "done" before the colour goes on. This gives the shop recourse if the owner wants to complain later about the prep.

I agree with you here. This is a common check point for bodyshops that many owners simply don't choose to do.

While this may seem contradictory to my first comments above, notice that I referred there to a check between color and clear...NOT to between Sealer/Primer and Color. Once the bodywork is done, the filler primer sanded smooth, the sealer top-coat applied is exactly when you will be able to note most of the problems that will marr a good paint job. This is an easy check spot to request...if they don't offer it to you first.

Once the color goes on, most of the time, the Clear is just another process in painting the color.

Not looking to belittle the point of "caveat emptor" being overdone, but being over-cautious can be just as damaging as not being cautious at all.

To sum it up, don't expect concours paint jobs out of production body shops. They're looking for the quick and relatively easy jobs. Replacing a panel, a bit of non-sanding primer and a quick coat of paint and they're done. Bumping out a fender is slowly becoming a thing of the past, as most cars are starting to be component built even in sections one wouldn't expect. If it does require that much work...the insurance company totals out the vehicle.

The craftsman style bodyshop is found usually through your local car clubs, or specialty houses. Sometimes they advertise, a lot of times they do not. Word of mouth amongst satisfied clients keeps them busy enough that they can literally CHOOSE what jobs they do and don't do. This shop will literally encourage you to check on their work...but also will refuse to be hemmed in by your paranoia.

Sorry if this is too blunt as I'm not looking to be argumentative. You're right that you have to be careful, but being too careful can also prevent you from doing many things.

2¢
E