Advice? > Oil Leak !

Daryl Smith · Post by **Daryl Smith** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 12:14 pm

I am having "problems" with the email list so am moving the discussion over here. Following is a short history and some previous discussion on the email list

Ran my new engine to try to figure out where an external oil leak was. Found it, and shut the engine off. While draining the oil (first change), I was checking over the engine and pulled the rad cap off.

There is a small amount of oil in the coolant!

>>> How long had the engine ran before the oil leak to showed up?

This is about the 4th time running. About 60 - 80 minutes total running
time.

>> >Is this the first time checking the water after the rebuild?

Checked the Water and oil each time it was started. Each time previously
everything looked good.

>>> Have you re-torqued the head since the rebuild?

Head was retorqued after the second startup (about 40 minutes total run time).

>> Sometimes after everything gets settled and
>> stretched small leaks can start showing up. If there is a bad seal
>> between a water and oil passage, the higher pressure oil may be >>getting in the water. Re-torquing can seal these up.

>> Before taking off the head I might pull the distributor and drive the
>> oil pump with a drill. That way you can get oil pressure to check your >> oil filter bypass. Pull the valve cover and check for oil flow. I found a
>> clogged passage going to the upper chain tensioned on a U20 that >> way.
>>
>> Richard <<<<

Good points. I will drive the pump with a drill to check it over. I am also
going to check the filter mount and cut
open the old filter to see if anything shows up in there (telltale bits
that may cause a clog elsewhere?).

>>>>Toby wrote:
>>>"you can run oil in your water with no real damage to the engine. >>The opposite is not true, as the coolant will kill your bearings."

So far shouldn't be any damage then!

>>>"As to the filter- if you're seeing pressure at the gauge, that's post
>>>the filter."

Good to know. I am reading about 60 - 70 psi oil pressure. I thought that
was high, but have been told it is not unusual for
a freshly built engine and it will likely come down as it breaks in.

The engine was built by a reputable shop, head to oilpan.
R16 block, G15 crank = 1800cc , 9.2- 9.4:1 compression, U20 oil pump.
(EDIS ignition, no dizzy)

1st fireup had to be cut short because it was overheating.
Got up to about 225* while I was trying to figure out what was wrong.
Turned out to be a bad rad (which had been to a shop for cleaning!).

2nd fire up with known good rad went very well, temp stayed in range and everything looked and sounded good.
That finished the "initial" start up and run @ 2000+ rpm for 30+ minutes.

3rd fire up I was going to take it for a spin but noticed a significant oil
leak that needed to be taken care of.
Took it up and down the block once anyway, and it ran great and sounded
good.

4th fire up was up on jackstands so I could figure out where the oil was
leaking from. (Looks like it is coming through the
timing cover near where I had some welding done. looks like a couple of
small pinholes.)

Daryl Smith · Post by **Daryl Smith** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 12:37 pm

I've drained the oil and coolant. Seems there was only about a tablespoon or less oil in the coolant. NO coolant in the oil.

Lots of tiny flakes of metal in the oil and oil filter, but nothing to indicate any larger peices which may cause a clog in the oil passages.

I ran a drill in the oil pump, but only got a slow steady dribble from the rocker shaft, even with the drill at high speed. Isn't this supposed to also "spray" onto the valvesprings/stems to cool them?
Does the rocker have to be in a certain position for it to "spray"?
Is this something I should be concerned about?

I am going to pull the timing cover to fix that external oil leak. Will clean it up, Put the bolts through from the inside with some o rings and JB weld or ? to seal the pinholes and hold the bolts permanently, and use nuts/washers to hold the VR sensor on.

The oil in the coolant does have me worried as it didn't show up in the
first few runs (near 1 hour run time)

and if it was in the water passages I would have thought it would show up right away. I'll retorque the head again and set the valves again too before I run it.

Any thing else I should check before I run it again?

Thanks

Post by **itsa68** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:30 pm

You may have heard this before, but was the longest head bolt washered correctly to include the lifting eye bracket so it did not bottom out and give you a false head torque at that bolt?
A possible cross leak at that area could occur if that situation is the case.

Just a guess.

Ray B.

Daryl Smith · Post by **Daryl Smith** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:16 pm

Switched over to ARP head stud kit (no lifting bracket) so that shouldn't be a problem. Hopefully.

Thanks

garth · Post by **garth** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:53 am

Daryl

I was thinking about this after we talked. I spoke to one of the mechanics at work about potential sources for the leak. His comment was "95% certain you don't have an oil to coolant leak, that what collected at the top of the radiator are residual oils, grease and fluids from the rebuild. I.e. lubricant and sealing residuals that will take a few hours at temperature to be scavenged from the coolant passages of the engine".

Don't panic. You may not have a problem.

I hope he's right for your sake.

Garth

Post by **reblues** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:55 am

What about the metal flakes in the oil? Did they look like bearing material?

Daryl Smith · Post by **Daryl Smith** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:45 am

Garth,
Thanks for the info, that seems to be the general consensus, so I'll run with it.

Richard,
I haven't enough experience to tell if it was bearing material.

They were all quite fine and "floating" in the oil so I was assuming it was kinda standard machining material / break-in washout.
First time I've actually had a good look at the oil after a break-in period and was surprised how much material was in the oil.

I definately recommend an oil change immediately after the initial 1/2 hour break-in period.

Thanks guys,

Post by **reblues** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:19 am

A year or so ago, I started getting a 'good' U20 ready to go. I was replacing the gaskets, seals, checking bearings. When I pulled the pan I found what almost looked like thin metal flakes in the bottom. There were a few other bits I couldn't identify, so I started looking. I pulled the timing cover and inspected the chain. I could see what looked like rough areas on the rollers. I pulled the chain and found broken rollers. The flakes appeared to be the hardened surface ot the rollers. A check of the crank end play showed way out of spec. The crank thurst surface was destroyed, the movement of the crank had put stress on the chains and caused the damage.

I know, long story but I wish I had seen the first few flakes and been able to research the problem before the crank and chains were ruined. As long as you have the timing cover off, may as well look around for source of your bits.

SLOroadster · Post by **SLOroadster** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:31 pm

When I rebuilt my engine, I got some oily residue in the top of the radiator. Nothing in the oil. It went away after I drained and ran coolent in it (started with straight RO water). Big pieces in the oil, thats never a good sign. I had so shavings or sparkles in my oil after the first change, just clean oil. Perhaps I was really lucky, I also used a boatload of assembly lube as it went together, and primed it before starting it.

Good luck,
Will

Post by **dbrick** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:50 am

I'm in with the residual oil thing. One way to tell if it's bearing material in the filter is a magnet, the other is lack of oil pressure.

BTW, if you are refilling the coolant, go get some distilled water, along with the antifreeze. no minerals and stuff in it to end up clogging things later.

Daryl Smith · Post by **Daryl Smith** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:13 am

Thanks guys,

I went and talked to the engine builder today. They said some metal "dust" in the oil can sometimes happen.
As long as I don't hear "funny" noises, run it. If there are any problems
they will look after it......

Will finnish the repairs tomorrow and probably fire it up again on Friday with my fingers crossed.

Taking my pulley/trigger wheel in to be balanced tomorrow also. hopefully they will do it right away.

I'll run a magnet over some of the residue in the oil drainpan I used & see what I get......

Also pick up some distilled water........

Daryl Smith · Post by **Daryl Smith** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:15 am

Tried to fire up the car again today. Couldn't figure out why it wasn't firing. My brother even showed up to help.
Was just about to pack it in cause the battery was getting low, when I noticed the coil WASN'T PLUGGED IN!! DOH!!

So plugged it in and got a HUGE backfire out of the forward carb! Sounded like a gun shot. My ears were ringing for half an hour. Bloody hell....what now??.....

After thinking about it, the way wasted spark works, decided it wasn't (I hope) a problem and tried again. Not enough juice in the battery to turn it over anymore!!!!!

I have a choice tomorrow. Fix one of the battery chargers I have around here and charge up the battery, Buy another battery from the wreckers for 35 bucks (back up), or both....
Course I could just buy another battery charger, but what's the fun in that?

I believe I've fixed the timing cover leak(s) with the stud/JB weld idea.

The valve clearances are re-set at about .021" (cold)

The pulley / trigger wheel was balanced ($30) with five 3/8" diameter drill holes about 1/8" deep on one side of the trigger wheel.

Dave at High Performance Engines figured that much of an imbalance may well have caused problems.

I also ran a magnet over the very small metal bits in the oil drain pan and most seemed to be magnetic. Everything under the timing cover looked fine. Turning the engine over by hand, everything seems smooth and quiet......??...

New oil and the rad is filled with distilled water. Ready to go.

Thanks for the tips / ideas. Thanks for reading.
Night

67 1/2 1600 · Post by **67 1/2 1600** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:37 am

Oh Ive had that before! Hows having the car way out of timing? The neighbors came out and looked at us like WTH was that!!.

Anywho.. why didnt you push start it? That could have helped start it since your big explosion probably fired up all the raw gas. Why not jump start it with another car? hehe..

Post by **dbrick** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:06 pm

I found out with my electronic ignition, Crane, it sparks on shut down. No big deal in normal use. But if you turn on the ignition and don't start the car, when you shut it off, the cap discharges and sends out a spark. Don't know if yours does too. If it's in gear, the car will actually move. Scared the crap out of me 1st time it happened.

Daryl Smith · Post by **Daryl Smith** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:31 am

Ran the car for a while today with seemingly good results:

1. Timing cover no longer leaks!

2. Leak at rear main seems to be less. (Engine builder says sometimes they will leak a little until they soak up some oil.

)

3. Compression test - 162, 175, 150, 160 . I am assuming mixed results till the engine is broken in, but decided to do it for reference. Will watch that 150psi cylinder tho.

4. Lost the instructions for my single gauge leak down tester and didn't want to wreck it so did a leak down test with 100psi directly into the cylinder. No leaks detected at exhaust, intake, or in the rad!

5. Didn't seem to be any more oil in the coolant than when I started (slight skiff of oil).

6. Made my timing map more conservative, base timing runs 15 - 35 degrees with only 6 degrees (was 12 degrees) of vacuum advance until I am sure everything else is sorted. Then I will try tuning the ignition more.

It does seem to idle a little better, but definitely needs some carb adjustments. Idles at 1000 rpm but rises to 1500 as it gets up to temp.
Will have to see what I can do with that.

A few other things to button up (attach hood, bolt body down, bumpers,....) and it should be on the road very soon.

Thanks for all the pointers!