2000 U20 Engine Rebuild + Mid Atlantic Machine Shop Recommendations

[mschel]

Hi, I have a 2000 parts car coming and trying to determine what to do with the U20 Engine. A few questions..

I am not sure if it turns over freely but the head was removed and supposedly machined but its apart and mostly (?) complete. I don't know if the short block turns over yet or cylinder damage etc.

Assuming it needs a basic rings, bearings, timing chain, gaskets, oil pump, water pump at minimum plus a mid duration/lift performance cam. I saw some older posts showing about $1500, what is the modern cost for a basic rebuild? If I have to add in machining what are people paying for that these days?

I am also looking for recommendations for mid atlantic (ideally maryland) machine shops that work on these engines. Also, someone in same area that does the 5 speeds.

Last question, assuming the lower end is not locked up and in serviceable condition what are motors in similar condition going for these days, I don't see any on marketplace etc to compare to. Just thinking ahead on both paths. I might just store the motor for a later date as another option.

I have rebuilt a few Ford v8s over the years so am decent at the various steps but no experience with this motor.

Thanks.

[Gregs672000]

Greetings! Hard to know without it being disassembled to see if it needs to be bored oversize of just needs a good hone and re-ring. I'd call around to a few machine shops and ask what they charge to mic it, hot tank, bore etc. Same with the crank. You can hone the bores yourself at home if that's all it needs. Oil pumps have become reasonable in price, but mine has likely seen 300k miles (!) and shows no problems or issues so you may not need to spend $$ there. Same with the water pump, though not as durable. Timing chains for sure, but you/we need to inspect your timing gears as well (now more reasonably priced) as well as the upper chain guide for chain strikes on the "evil" L. Regarding the head, I'd want to see the cam and rockers as they can wear and come in different versions.
You have a few places I know of where you can get your cam ground and rockers surfaced (if still good, or usable as cores for replacements) like Isky in CA, Delta Cam in Tacoma WA, Robello in CA or buy a kit from one of the vendors. If you run the cam as is it must be matched cam lobe to same rocker or it may wear the cam/rocker quickly due to wear patterns being different. Check to see if the brass valve seats have been replaced (especially the exhaust) and make sure the valves/guides are all fresh or in good shape. The head must be assembled properly to establish valve height (beyond my experience), and make sure the springs are good.

These are not complex engines, and a lot of your previous experience will apply, but they do have two timing chains and their alignment must be correct. You are welcome to post pics of various things (timing gears, cam and rockers, etc) so we can help advise. Also consider it needs to have decent carbs and ignition to work well and those pieces need to be evaluated in consideration of your engine budget. Most U20s will need to be properly "de-smogged" if not done before which requires a different distributor or curve... we can tell you how to check or what your options are there.

Keep asking questions, read posts and review the tech wiki for technical stuff and upgrade/replacement options. We are here to help!

[theunz]

Here is a very comprehensive parts website with prices. Parts are available from several vendors listed under “vendor list” near the top on this page. Parts are also available from several places not listed and are most likely reliable, but the above are well vetted.
It must have been many years ago that you saw $1500 for a basic rebuild on a U20. A full gasket set alone will set you back about $500. Most every U20 needs timing chains and at least a couple of the gears. Generally speaking a thorough rebuild will cost 5 to 8 thousand. Of course you can do it for much less if you just want the bare minimum to get it running, but that would hardly be considered a “rebuild”. Oh, and that doesn’t include rebuilding the carbs which usually require new throttle shafts and the necessary machining to fit. Hopefully you are one of the lucky ones with a super low mileage engine that won’t need a full rebuild. Now, about that transmission overhaul……

[mschel]

Hi, thanks for all the info. I am just hoping all the parts are there too! It sounds like the head/valvetrain and timing chains are going to be a bit of learning curve vs what I am used to.

I will bookmark this info as I research further, thanks for all the details.

Greetings! Hard to know without it being disassembled to see if it needs to be bored oversize of just needs a good hone and re-ring. I'd call around to a few machine shops and ask what they charge to mic it, hot tank, bore etc. Same with the crank. You can hone the bores yourself at home if that's all it needs. Oil pumps have become reasonable in price, but mine has likely seen 300k miles (!) and shows no problems or issues so you may not need to spend $$ there. Same with the water pump, though not as durable. Timing chains for sure, but you/we need to inspect your timing gears as well (now more reasonably priced) as well as the upper chain guide for chain strikes on the "evil" L. Regarding the head, I'd want to see the cam and rockers as they can wear and come in different versions.
You have a few places I know of where you can get your cam ground and rockers surfaced (if still good, or usable as cores for replacements) like Isky in CA, Delta Cam in Tacoma WA, Robello in CA or buy a kit from one of the vendors. If you run the cam as is it must be matched cam lobe to same rocker or it may wear the cam/rocker quickly due to wear patterns being different. Check to see if the brass valve seats have been replaced (especially the exhaust) and make sure the valves/guides are all fresh or in good shape. The head must be assembled properly to establish valve height (beyond my experience), and make sure the springs are good.

These are not complex engines, and a lot of your previous experience will apply, but they do have two timing chains and their alignment must be correct. You are welcome to post pics of various things (timing gears, cam and rockers, etc) so we can help advise. Also consider it needs to have decent carbs and ignition to work well and those pieces need to be evaluated in consideration of your engine budget. Most U20s will need to be properly "de-smogged" if not done before which requires a different distributor or curve... we can tell you how to check or what your options are there.

Keep asking questions, read posts and review the tech wiki for technical stuff and upgrade/replacement options. We are here to help!

[mschel]

Wow 5-8k, that is a bit unexpected but everything is so expensive these days I am not completely shocked.

You are scaring me on the last note about the transmission. Is that an expensive overhaul as well?

My hope is it just needs some minor repairs but its unknown why the head was pulled to begin with. Previous owner got it that way apparently.

Here is a very comprehensive parts website with prices. Parts are available from several vendors listed under “vendor list” near the top on this page. Parts are also available from several places not listed and are most likely reliable, but the above are well vetted.
It must have been many years ago that you saw $1500 for a basic rebuild on a U20. A full gasket set alone will set you back about $500. Most every U20 needs timing chains and at least a couple of the gears. Generally speaking a thorough rebuild will cost 5 to 8 thousand. Of course you can do it for much less if you just want the bare minimum to get it running, but that would hardly be considered a “rebuild”. Oh, and that doesn’t include rebuilding the carbs which usually require new throttle shafts and the necessary machining to fit. Hopefully you are one of the lucky ones with a super low mileage engine that won’t need a full rebuild. Now, about that transmission overhaul……

[Gregs672000]

Ya, gearboxes are nice but if trashed they can be expensive (not my expertise but a few here are... they can advise). It's really hard to say what the motor will need. But Mike is right and there's several unknowns. You can easily price a rebuild kit from minor to major (our great vendors have done an excellent job, and I strongly encourage you to review them). Assume it needs everything. Call some local machine shops and ask what they charge these days... a crank is a crank, a block is a block... if you have built engines before you know the drill. Some of my first motor was trashed (the bearings had disintegrated) but the pistons were fine and the block only required a hone and rings. Had to replace two timing gears as I recall as advised by Dan of Rallye Roadster himself but the other 2 were fine and I ran them for years (my Roadster was my daily driver when I was in school in CA). You'll have an idea of what it's gonna run and you can evaluate things as you tear it down and hope it's better than you expect. And as Mike said, you will need to add in the possibility of a carb rebuild... you're not gonna get something off the shelf like you can for almost any V8, and if they are trash then it won't run right...

[mschel]

So the visible cylinder walls look good. No visible scratches or even a ridge at top. Am soaking them in engine penetrating oil/storage oil and will try to turn over by the bolt.

With the head off and the timing chain still on the front side is there any risk of messing anything up with a breaker bar and socket turn over. Also, I assume clockwise rotation?

The distributor is still installed, oil pan etc. It looks like someone pulled the head only since everything else is still in place.

The title from 1996 showed 30k miles and its just over 60k on odometer. The seats are trashed so not sure if age would do that or if its really 160k. Last inspection was 2013. So yeah its a total guess with that evidence.

[mschel]

One other question, Is it easier to pull the shortblock or shortblock with the 5 speed? I want to get it on an engine stand and check bearings etc.

I have an engine lift but my ceiling trolley mounted hoist would be much easier than getting the big engine hoist out of storage.

[theunz]

Most just pull the transmission with the engine since you can’t pull the transmission without pulling the engine. You will want to at a minimum check your clutch and flywheel while the engine is out and trying to stab the engine onto the transmission in the car would be very difficult in my opinion. The 5 speed will not leak fluid when you unhook the driveshaft by the way. The engine and transmission will come out at a very steep angle by the way. To check for free movement on an engine that has been sitting a long time I like to put the transmission in the highest gear and then gently rock the car back and forth.
If the previous owner has removed the head and left it off there is a good chance it was due to a blown head gasket. First thing you should do is check the head for warping, as they are know to do so. Do no, I repeat DO NOT just let a machine shop randomly mill the head, as it can only be milled a very small amount before it becomes a very expensive door stop. It’s best to have it straightened if possible. Remember it also warps on the top where the cam rides as well as the bottom. I have a head of a spare motor I bought that is warped so much on top that it broke the camshaft. You can literally set the cam in without the caps and noticeably rock it up and down on each end! No not remove the cam towers if possibly because getting them realigned can be a real problem.
As for mileage, if the speedometer is still working than the 60K is a lot more likely that 160K.
You will do well to do a lot of reading an question asking on this forum before you dive into the deep end. There are a lot of members here that will be happy to answer any questions as well as offering advice. Good luck with your endeavor, it will be well worth it when you take your first drive

[mschel]

Thanks, interesting point on the transmission coming out with the engine. I guess there is not much room under to drop transmission on its own? Guess I will have to get the engine hoist of out storage vs the ceiling lift.

I was guessing head gasket too but they did send the head to a machine shop already and no idea what was done yet. Will try to get their receipt if possible. I would assume if I see milling marks on it I would need to worry about it being shaved down. I have a large micrometer, are you aware of a standard measurement to see if it was shaved down? Head to valve seat maybe?

Hopefully get everything around it stripped and maybe check the brakes this weekend. No pressure which probably means MC but want to try a quick bleed and fresh brake fluid first.

If I pull it and put on an engine stand is there anything I need to worry about with the timing chain being loose if I do turn it over?

Reading this site too, has some good assembly tips:
http://mydatsun.com/Engine%20Rebuild.html

[theunz]

You need to watch that the upper chain doesn’t bind up when you turn the engine. The lower chain should be ok since it’s still connected to the jackshaft.
I don’t recall offhand what the minimum head thickness is, but a search here will easily bring it and a lot more information on the head. If it’s not to far out of spec thicker head gaskets are available.

[mschel]

Great. Thanks for the info. Will post more as I dig into it

[mschel]

Update.. Drained the oil and its nice and black no antifreeze milkshake. So not the cooling passages part of head gasket.

Hoping to get the motor pulled later in week and investigate further.

[mschel]

The head bolts are missing for the motor. Being that this car seems to be a mix of metric and standard I am guessing metric for the U20 Head Bolts? if metric, what size and pitch? I did look over the wiki and searched but not seeing it for some reason.

Any risk of lifting the engine/trans out by the head bolts or is there a better place to lift from. I have one of the adjustable angle lifts so was thinking of using the head bolt block holes to lift once I figure out which type of bolt it takes.

Thanks.

[Gregs672000]

I would suggest using/replacing with head studs anyway (via vendors) as they are reusable vs the original which are "true stretch bolts". I dont know the pitch but pretty sure the block threads are metric. I have used a strong S hook bolted to the engine with a long transmission-to-engine bolt and a big washer in the back, and one of the alternator mount-to-block bolts up front. It works with enough chain and connectors. You may want to put a chalk or similar mark on your drive shaft ends where they bolt as they are balanced and (assuming they were right before) should go back on the same way later when reassembled (if already off, no problem as we can direct you as to where to find the factory marks). If you're lucky you may find the original "engine pulling" hook that used the upper two rear intake manifold bolts to provide a lifting hook in your "head/manifold nuts/parts" bin, but that won't help you here with the head off. Nice to have for later if you find it.

I don't see any risk in lifting from a bolt in a head bolt hole.