OK, I am prepared for some flaming on this one, but here goes:
I figure it will happen sooner or later, so I might as well go ahead and do it.
http://datsota.evforge.net/
That is a 7.5" x 15" 105 lbs electric motor delivering up to 140ft/lbs of torque with a 6000RPM redline. I can always upgrade to two later, giving me decent performance. Here was the inspiration:
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/whitezombie.php
I am using a toyota W50 tranny out of a 85(?) RWD pickup with the stock rear-end.
Has anyone done this before? Or am I the first 2000 electric?
Electric, anyone?
Moderators: notoptoy, S Allen, Solex68
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Dave
- Turbo Powered
- Posts: 657
- Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 12:24 am
- Location: In the refrigerator, to the left of the mayonnaise, behind the pickles and beer.
So, I'm not voting because there's not an option for "cool idea but the battery technology isn't quite there yet."
I've seen John's car in person at the Nissan/Datsun Blue Lake meet in Portland. He's got the entire trunk and what was the back seat FULL of batteries. It gets him amazing acceleration but only about 30 miles of range. He said he can re-configure it for longer distances but the performance suffers.
So, here's the problem...Where do you put 20 to 25 lead acid batteries in a roadster? You could get maybe 7 in the trunk and another 6 in the rear package tray. One on the floor behind each seat if you're short and can scoot the seats way up. OK, so you got 15 and your weight distribution just went to about 30/70
.
IMHO, the fun of the roadster is that it's light and nimble with good balance. You just nuked all those things with this set-up.
Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of electric cars and think we'll all be driving some form of them within the next 25 years. The controllers are good and the motors are good. It's the battery technology (at least affordable technology) that isn't quite there yet. Now, once someone figures out how to make a "dry" battery such as a Li Ion that's light weight, powerful, MOLDABLE to any shape, and affordable, for automotive use, well then we'll be in business!
I've seen John's car in person at the Nissan/Datsun Blue Lake meet in Portland. He's got the entire trunk and what was the back seat FULL of batteries. It gets him amazing acceleration but only about 30 miles of range. He said he can re-configure it for longer distances but the performance suffers.
So, here's the problem...Where do you put 20 to 25 lead acid batteries in a roadster? You could get maybe 7 in the trunk and another 6 in the rear package tray. One on the floor behind each seat if you're short and can scoot the seats way up. OK, so you got 15 and your weight distribution just went to about 30/70
.IMHO, the fun of the roadster is that it's light and nimble with good balance. You just nuked all those things with this set-up.
Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of electric cars and think we'll all be driving some form of them within the next 25 years. The controllers are good and the motors are good. It's the battery technology (at least affordable technology) that isn't quite there yet. Now, once someone figures out how to make a "dry" battery such as a Li Ion that's light weight, powerful, MOLDABLE to any shape, and affordable, for automotive use, well then we'll be in business!
Dave Kaplan
68 2000 Roadster - Now with GT2560R power!
SR20-DET: 223 rwhp, 222 lb-ft.
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/698904
68 2000 Roadster - Now with GT2560R power!
SR20-DET: 223 rwhp, 222 lb-ft.
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/698904
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Import_sounds-of-mid-GA
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EZombie
The issue of battery location is the rub, yes 
You seem to be forgetting where the engine and radiator used to go. The motor is only 7.5" in diameter and 15" long...
I'm trying to keep mine (relatively) light, as it will only be an about-town fun car. I have been keeping track of my miles travelled each day, and I never go more then 30 miles in a day anyways.
Now gas is what - 8 lbs per gallon? So since there is no gas tank, there will much less "rear of axle" wieght. I was thinking of 4 batteries on the package shelf (I don't have a soft-top anyways). Given that they are right in front of the axle, I should be able to place 500 lbs of batteries on the package shelf (4 x 12v @ 125lbs each).
Now the original engine complete with intake, carb, headers, radiator, full of coolant and oil, and tranny + bellhousing is maybe ~350lbs? (correct me if i'm way off) And the tranny I have is much lighter and a bit shorter then the Datsun one. I can pick it up with one hand even. So the electric motor + W50 + aluminum bellhousing = 163 lbs. This weight will be concentrated quite a bit further back from the front wheels. So I figure another 500 lbs of batteries under the hood.
That gives me 96V @ 100Ahrs with standard $110 a piece lead-acid batteries. On the flat at 35 MPH (my typical speed) this will give me ~35 miles range. Now if I start punching it at the stop lights, I will have likely see much less (~20 miles). That should suite my usage of the car fine. And other non-Datsun roadster conversions (MG, Healey) have reported that the extra "low-down" weight give the car a riding-on-rails handling. Of course I will have to upgrade the rear leafs (they are shot anyways) and run nice stiff springs up front (which happen to come with the car)
Now this may leave the car a tad nose heavy, but two batteries where the gas tank used to be should even things out. That will give me 30 mile range when having some fun around town at the lights.
Now it won't be as fast as White Zombie (even in mild form, that car is a screamer at the stop lights), but the 0-30 should be noticeably faster then stock.
Of course the one sweet part about electrics is that you can upgrade parts of it (like the motor or the batteries) quite easily. Interchangability is the name of the game. The setup described above will cost me around $2400 (since I already have the motor and tranny). If I want to switch over to AGM, gell-cell, or maybe even li-poly later, it's a piece of cake.
That is the plan so far, anyways
You seem to be forgetting where the engine and radiator used to go. The motor is only 7.5" in diameter and 15" long...
I'm trying to keep mine (relatively) light, as it will only be an about-town fun car. I have been keeping track of my miles travelled each day, and I never go more then 30 miles in a day anyways.
Now gas is what - 8 lbs per gallon? So since there is no gas tank, there will much less "rear of axle" wieght. I was thinking of 4 batteries on the package shelf (I don't have a soft-top anyways). Given that they are right in front of the axle, I should be able to place 500 lbs of batteries on the package shelf (4 x 12v @ 125lbs each).
Now the original engine complete with intake, carb, headers, radiator, full of coolant and oil, and tranny + bellhousing is maybe ~350lbs? (correct me if i'm way off) And the tranny I have is much lighter and a bit shorter then the Datsun one. I can pick it up with one hand even. So the electric motor + W50 + aluminum bellhousing = 163 lbs. This weight will be concentrated quite a bit further back from the front wheels. So I figure another 500 lbs of batteries under the hood.
That gives me 96V @ 100Ahrs with standard $110 a piece lead-acid batteries. On the flat at 35 MPH (my typical speed) this will give me ~35 miles range. Now if I start punching it at the stop lights, I will have likely see much less (~20 miles). That should suite my usage of the car fine. And other non-Datsun roadster conversions (MG, Healey) have reported that the extra "low-down" weight give the car a riding-on-rails handling. Of course I will have to upgrade the rear leafs (they are shot anyways) and run nice stiff springs up front (which happen to come with the car)
Now this may leave the car a tad nose heavy, but two batteries where the gas tank used to be should even things out. That will give me 30 mile range when having some fun around town at the lights.
Now it won't be as fast as White Zombie (even in mild form, that car is a screamer at the stop lights), but the 0-30 should be noticeably faster then stock.
Of course the one sweet part about electrics is that you can upgrade parts of it (like the motor or the batteries) quite easily. Interchangability is the name of the game. The setup described above will cost me around $2400 (since I already have the motor and tranny). If I want to switch over to AGM, gell-cell, or maybe even li-poly later, it's a piece of cake.
That is the plan so far, anyways
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EZombie
P.S. this car was found in a back-woods junkyard, full of field mice in the heater ducts, and a decent amount of frame rust. It was hacked at considerably by the PO, so there is nowhere to mount a softtop frame, two "wrong year" body panels, and some interesting frame modifications.
I wouldn't want to take a restorable 2000 off the potential runners list, but this wouldn't be one of them. I'm just trying to use it as a base for a fun project and an interesting commuter/weekend car. Plus I just like doing things that are "different".
I wouldn't want to take a restorable 2000 off the potential runners list, but this wouldn't be one of them. I'm just trying to use it as a base for a fun project and an interesting commuter/weekend car. Plus I just like doing things that are "different".
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Import_sounds-of-mid-GA
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JoeK
You could probably fit a couple more batteries under the package shelf.
Electric acceleration is awesome. You get full horse power at 0 rpms and it doesn't slack off, no peaks or valleys in the power band. I loved the feel of it when my lazyboy was electric, but range was so poor, I had to switch it back to gas. The extra battery weight did make it handle better, since the weight was so low. I couldn't get it to slide out, though that was half the fun when it was gas.
Keep us infromed on your progress, I'd be interested to hear what your range ends up being. Maybe try keeping an eye out for a crashed Prius, maybe you could do a brake conversion that would give you regeneration.
Electric acceleration is awesome. You get full horse power at 0 rpms and it doesn't slack off, no peaks or valleys in the power band. I loved the feel of it when my lazyboy was electric, but range was so poor, I had to switch it back to gas. The extra battery weight did make it handle better, since the weight was so low. I couldn't get it to slide out, though that was half the fun when it was gas.
Keep us infromed on your progress, I'd be interested to hear what your range ends up being. Maybe try keeping an eye out for a crashed Prius, maybe you could do a brake conversion that would give you regeneration.
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EZombie
The electric motor?
It makes a sound like leaves rustling in a heavy wind from 0 to ~400 RPM, then it becomes a mechanic murmur (just like the background sound inside the ship on the new Battlestar Galactica show).
It pumps a lot of air through itself at the higher RPMs, about half that of a 2 liter engine's exhaust. I have a shroud for the air outlet that I will hook up to the exhaust system (2-1/2"). On cold mornings, it should lightly "steam" just like a regular engines' due to the exhaust tempature (up to 180F when floored).
With a long, straght pipe on the shroud, the sound frequency is lowered & filtered to a deep mumbling. Reminds me of the exhaust of a late-model 300ZX with the throttle closed.
It makes a sound like leaves rustling in a heavy wind from 0 to ~400 RPM, then it becomes a mechanic murmur (just like the background sound inside the ship on the new Battlestar Galactica show).
It pumps a lot of air through itself at the higher RPMs, about half that of a 2 liter engine's exhaust. I have a shroud for the air outlet that I will hook up to the exhaust system (2-1/2"). On cold mornings, it should lightly "steam" just like a regular engines' due to the exhaust tempature (up to 180F when floored).
With a long, straght pipe on the shroud, the sound frequency is lowered & filtered to a deep mumbling. Reminds me of the exhaust of a late-model 300ZX with the throttle closed.
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dbrick
- Roadster Fanatic-Site Supporter
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- Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:05 pm
- Location: Kenilworth, New Jersey
Silly thought, but why not.... A friend and I years ago discussed using a small very efficient gas engine tuned to run at a steady RPM driving a generator. As long as the gas engine generated about 110% of the amperage needed for average cruise, the other 10% charges the battery. This gives long cruise range and a battery reserve for extra power.
The thought behind it all was a small engine running at steady load and steady RPM can be tuned to be very fuel efficient. It would also let you buy fuel on the road and not be tied to a charger. Sort of a stone axe version of a Prius. Using a small turbine would be fun.
The thought behind it all was a small engine running at steady load and steady RPM can be tuned to be very fuel efficient. It would also let you buy fuel on the road and not be tied to a charger. Sort of a stone axe version of a Prius. Using a small turbine would be fun.
Dave Brisco
Take my advice, I'm not using it"
66 2000 The Bobster
64 1500 in pieces for sale
1980 Fiat X1/9
2009 Volvo C-70
08 Expedition EL, STUPID huge but comfy
1962 Thompson Sea Lancer, possible money pit
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Import_sounds-of-mid-GA
I love the sound of hobby elec. RC cars..... they wind up soooo fast! But where will the 2 1/2" exhaust fit? Wont you have to cut the x-member??EZombie wrote:The electric motor?
It makes a sound like leaves rustling in a heavy wind from 0 to ~400 RPM, then it becomes a mechanic murmur (just like the background sound inside the ship on the new Battlestar Galactica show).
It pumps a lot of air through itself at the higher RPMs, about half that of a 2 liter engine's exhaust. I have a shroud for the air outlet that I will hook up to the exhaust system (2-1/2"). On cold mornings, it should lightly "steam" just like a regular engines' due to the exhaust tempature (up to 180F when floored).
With a long, straght pipe on the shroud, the sound frequency is lowered & filtered to a deep mumbling. Reminds me of the exhaust of a late-model 300ZX with the throttle closed.
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EZombie
As I said about the condition of the car when I bought it:
I have been playing around, and the best sound comes from 1 3/4 light steel tubing, so I think that is what I will go with.
It appears the car was used for racing at some point in it's lifetime. Much frame reinforcements, extra cut-outs, stiff springs, koni's all the way around, extended flairs with extra wide tires....and some interesting frame modifications.
I have been playing around, and the best sound comes from 1 3/4 light steel tubing, so I think that is what I will go with.
After measuring how much space is available and looking around a bit, the largest on-board genset setup I could use would provide about only about 40% cruise amperage. I am building it so that I can add another motor directly above the current motor (where the top half of the block and the head normally go) and link the output via a motorcycle-style drive belt on the large toothed pulley I am using for a motor->flywheel adapter. I *could* perhaps use a gas motor in tandem instead... first I want to drive this bugger down the road, then I will start messing with it...As long as the gas engine generated about 110% of the amperage needed for average cruise, the other 10% charges the battery. This gives long cruise range and a battery reserve for extra power.
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JFBrink
I'm slowly gearing up to do an electric conversion to my '66.
Until A123's new LiIon batteries become widely available, the issue of where to fit all the 12V beasties is a big deal: space and distribution.
Also, there's something irksome and wasteful about making the motor turn that 40 year old transmission, driveshaft and differential.
So, what I'm pondering is mounting the transaxle of a mid-engine car (VW would be easiest, MR2 most interesting, also Fiero and Porsche) and the motor in the back. Probably 200 lbs. more than stock.
Then, just *fill* the engine compartment and transmission tunnel with batteries, up to 200 lbs. more than stock. Presto, balance, far from GVW. Also, who want batteries in their passenger compartment?
I still have to do a lot of measuring before I'm convinced of the feasibility of this scheme. Since I'm looking at a water-cooled AC motor, it's kinda fat & with the transaxle, too, I'd have a bit of a hump into the trunk.
Still, compared to most electric conversions, it would be a small loss.
What do you think?
Jesse.
Until A123's new LiIon batteries become widely available, the issue of where to fit all the 12V beasties is a big deal: space and distribution.
Also, there's something irksome and wasteful about making the motor turn that 40 year old transmission, driveshaft and differential.
So, what I'm pondering is mounting the transaxle of a mid-engine car (VW would be easiest, MR2 most interesting, also Fiero and Porsche) and the motor in the back. Probably 200 lbs. more than stock.
Then, just *fill* the engine compartment and transmission tunnel with batteries, up to 200 lbs. more than stock. Presto, balance, far from GVW. Also, who want batteries in their passenger compartment?
I still have to do a lot of measuring before I'm convinced of the feasibility of this scheme. Since I'm looking at a water-cooled AC motor, it's kinda fat & with the transaxle, too, I'd have a bit of a hump into the trunk.
Still, compared to most electric conversions, it would be a small loss.
What do you think?
Jesse.
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EZombie
Hmmm... interesting. How high is the motor assembly? I can't see that there is enough difference between a well-running diff and tranny and a transaxle (since a transaxle *is* a tranny with basically a built-in diff).
I'm using a Toyota W50 tranny (which gives excellent gear ratios combined with the stock rear-end), for more torque just use a T50 instead. They drop right in where the Datsun tranny was. They are also very smooth running with little drag (I can spin the tranny up by hand in every gear).
What is the stock engine and tranny weigh? I know I can toss around the driveshaft while thinking in my garage (maybe 8-15lbs). The Toy tranny is a bit lighter then the Datsun, and it weighs in at 58lbs with clutch and bellhousing. You will still need a radiator up front I take it? I know how much the tank weighs (23lbs) and gas is 8lbs a gallon.
What we need to do is get some weights on a stock setup (four corners, tank full), and then check a stripped setup (no engine - tranny - driveshaft - radiator, but with brakes, steering, front suspension, and rear-end) and then weigh the rear-end and take half of that off each rear wheel weight for the stripped setup (since it is even with the rear hubs).
By recording the differences, you can figure out how to distribute a given weight around to keep the balance the same. (I think...) You will also have an idea of the weight allowance we have to work with. I say to keep the corner weights less then 25% over stock to maintain somewhat the original driving characteristics (which would give us a max ~2600lb car). Hopefully this would allow for 800lbs or so of batts.
I'm using a Toyota W50 tranny (which gives excellent gear ratios combined with the stock rear-end), for more torque just use a T50 instead. They drop right in where the Datsun tranny was. They are also very smooth running with little drag (I can spin the tranny up by hand in every gear).
What is the stock engine and tranny weigh? I know I can toss around the driveshaft while thinking in my garage (maybe 8-15lbs). The Toy tranny is a bit lighter then the Datsun, and it weighs in at 58lbs with clutch and bellhousing. You will still need a radiator up front I take it? I know how much the tank weighs (23lbs) and gas is 8lbs a gallon.
What we need to do is get some weights on a stock setup (four corners, tank full), and then check a stripped setup (no engine - tranny - driveshaft - radiator, but with brakes, steering, front suspension, and rear-end) and then weigh the rear-end and take half of that off each rear wheel weight for the stripped setup (since it is even with the rear hubs).
By recording the differences, you can figure out how to distribute a given weight around to keep the balance the same. (I think...) You will also have an idea of the weight allowance we have to work with. I say to keep the corner weights less then 25% over stock to maintain somewhat the original driving characteristics (which would give us a max ~2600lb car). Hopefully this would allow for 800lbs or so of batts.