New 1600 rebuild - Difficulty Starting

[ct06033]

Okay, I am a bit stumped here. I rebuilt my engine and I am stumped on how to get her running properly.

During the rebuild, I made sure the timing chain was installed properly, distributer dog gear is in place/aligned with cylinder 1 at TDC+16degrees, valves set properly. Lastly I am in denver so at altitude. I have the timing advanced a good bit, seems to run better this way but I don't claim to know a lot about this.

My biggest issue at the moment is the engine is very difficult to start, even when warmed up and running, I turn off ignition and it won't start again without a lot of cranking and playing with the throttle. The engine acts like it is flooded however other symptoms such as backfire out the carb points to a lean condition...

There's some other issues I'm trying to work through but this is my biggest stump. I assume if I can figure this out, the rest is more fine tuning.

One last thought is my fuel is a bit old (about 6 months) could it be causing some of these issues?

[Gregs672000]

Do you have a timing Light? Check for normal advance etc. What do your plugs tell you? Black, white, tan? Check spark wire order just for grins and giggles, as my motor ran to 80mph with crossed wires. Check compression just to make sure it's healthy and everything is sealing. Check for intermittent spark during cranking (timing light again). If points dizzy, make sure all tune up parts are good, replace if not sure (especially the points condenser).

If you think it's a fueling issue, try a small short shot of starting fluid to supplement the fuel while cranking. If it fires immediately then you kinda know it may not be getting enough fuel, or pull the choke and see what it does.

And yes, fresh gas would be prudent.

Report back!

[jrusso07]

I think you are saying you set the advance at +16 at the distributor. The +16 only if you have a pre-smog distributor. Look at the distributor point cam (under the points contact plate) at the markings where the weight springs attach. Non-smog distributor should be marked 7.5 vs 17.5. If 17.5 set advance to 0 and replace the distributor cam with a non smog unit when you can

[JT68]

There is no reason to guess about the timing. If you don’t have a timing light, you need one.

[redroadster]

There is a big difference in timing a broke in engine and a newly rebuilt one ...if its turning torque is high ...I would check pull plugs us a old torque wrench ...because what you described is what will happen if it is turning over slow ...ever have a big 1 cyl riding lawn mower cranking slow it only backfires out carb . with a stronger faster cranking it is fine
Retard it - timing after making sure it not flooded
Start with only 1 plug firing , it will barely be faster than a normal starter ....do this for 10 30 sec cranks then add a plug , if something s wrong in engine and if revs to
50 times per second - 3000 rpm it screws you ....ask me why I know that
There is no problem retarding timing to start ,it's normally done in trying to start advance ing it is problematic though ,can damage the cam gears etc.

[ct06033]

Okay, so I didnt have a ton of time today to work on this but here is my report.

I need to get a Timing light, i figured I would do some checking rather than retail therapy but tomorrow (today, sunday) I will go ahead and buy one.
I pulled the spark plugs and they were all had a decent amount of soot on them, i may actually be flooding the engine...

Checked the compression - 120psi exactly across the board the readings may be a bit low due to a cold engine but the consistency made me believe its fine.
Checked wire order, was correct, set at 1342. 1 being closest to the cabin, 4, closest to radiator.

Tried starter fluid, did not start any quicker.

As for Distributor, I realized I need to gap the point... have not done that in a long while. I will go ahead and check if it is pre-smog. I know I am not running smog equipment and have a 5-main block and older, iron head.

I currently have the A/F mix set to 360 degrees off full lean (turn counter clockwise until tight, set one full rotation clockwise.)

Next steps is timing light, topping tank off with fresh gas, gapping the point...and anything else suggested in this thread.

[DAC21]

Okay, so I didnt have a ton of time today to work on this but here is my report.

I need to get a Timing light, i figured I would do some checking rather than retail therapy but tomorrow (today, sunday) I will go ahead and buy one.
I pulled the spark plugs and they were all had a decent amount of soot on them, i may actually be flooding the engine...

Checked the compression - 120psi exactly across the board the readings may be a bit low due to a cold engine but the consistency made me believe its fine.
Checked wire order, was correct, set at 1342. 1 being closest to the cabin, 4, closest to radiator.

Tried starter fluid, did not start any quicker.

As for Distributor, I realized I need to gap the point... have not done that in a long while. I will go ahead and check if it is pre-smog. I know I am not running smog equipment and have a 5-main block and older, iron head.

I currently have the A/F mix set to 360 degrees off full lean (turn counter clockwise until tight, set one full rotation clockwise.)

Next steps is timing light, topping tank off with fresh gas, gapping the point...and anything else suggested in this thread.

I believe cylinder 1 is at the front, cylinder 4 at the firewall.

[redroadster]

That's low compression on a 1600, cold is what you want to get TRUE readings. sure guage is correct?
What is the 1st pump reading , maybe like I said straining to turn over ...as a 28 year dealer tech 10 at nissan without as doubt nix starting spray used Abit of carb spray only ... Many shops if it's not running and has starting spray either will say we don't want it and got good reason, the blame game comes into play too much

[C.Costine]

What DAC21 said. #1 closest to the front.

[notoptoy]

And just to be sure the firing order is 1342, counter clockwise.

[Gregs672000]

Timing lights can be expensive, but you can get a cheap dial back one at Harbor Freight that will do the job. I was under the impression that the only thing that had changed was the rebuilding of the head.

So, with black plugs you either are too rich or the plugs are not firing. Compression test should be done with a good battery and the throttle plates wide open. The timing light is going to tell the story.

[ct06033]

Well, Problem 1 found. The plug wires I used are NGK and the short wire with the 90 degree bend is labeled #1.... Firing order is counter-clockwise but because the wires are labeled backwards, my firing order is currently 4213. I need to fix that for sure. (this could honestly be my entire problem..)

Today I was able to run out and buy a Timing light (coincidently, I did end up with the Harbor Freight version) and spark checker (for laziness).

Compression test was done with good battery but throttle was closed, I didnt think of that... can altitude also affect these readings?

I did a full refresh top and bottom, new oil pump, main bearings, rod bearings, cam bearings, rings, all gaskets, valve seals, TCT, water pump, head and block was resurfaced and honed. I did all the assembly myself and yes, I understand a shop can do it better but this was a personal challenge to myself. Happy to post photos if you like as I am quite proud of the work.

Unfortunately as it is quite cold here and I have a 9-5, I most likely will not be able to do any further work until next Saturday. I will report back then.

[spl310]

Ignore the labels on the plug wires. Very TDC, orient the distributor properly and wire up the plugs. If you did the compression test with the throttles closed, I wouldn't redo it.

[redroadster]

Since the firing order was off ,do you have it TDC of the compression stroke?
You could take a Android video of the work you do ,post it to YT , so we can get a feel of it

[ct06033]

Yes, I will cover and relabel the wires just because I dont want this to happen again. Now you have me worried as I did set everything up around TDC of cylinder 4. I will have to make sure everything aligns with cylinder 1 now. At least I have a direction!