timing

[Lorna c]

ok question for some out here that may know this one ..
okay I have an ex who taught me something about over advancement on your timing.. now I'm trying it and seems to be true . advance till it pings and back it off a touch .. haha he told me a hole speel about how it'll be more efficient and more horsepower . anyone ever heard of this ? I said someone would know on here .. he said y'all would laugh at me if I said this on here . but anyone ?

[Daryl Smith]

At one time that was a popular thing to do, however, it is possible to advance the ignition past the point where it makes best power, without 'ping', and you end up decreasing overall power (increased pressure on the piston on it's way up). Not sure on these engines...

I have known some (different engine) who increased igniton timing by a couple degrees at a time, test driving each increment, until they felt power decreasing or heard detonation/ping then backed off the timing a couple degrees and called it good. Without testing on a dyno, it could be hard to really tell, and if you don't hear the 'ping' you could end up blowing your engine....
An increase in power would be an increase in efficiency...If you kept good records of your milage, before and after, you might notice a slight increase in milage over a few tanks....maybe...

On a stock engine, likely best power would be very close to factory specs, but, there will be differences from engine to engine...testing is the only way to know for sure...
With the electronic ignition and a strong coil, the increased spark energy will speed the burn over what it was stock. A more reliable/stronger spark for each cycle (less 'misses') accounts for slightly better power and milage.
Once you start modifying the engine, especially the combustion chamber (pistons/head) or porting for more air, you may actually want less timing than stock....ymmv.

[spyder]

Here is the problem I have chased for maximum performance since the early '90. All engines behave different to timing settings as well as inductions changes. I changed the distributor weights by grinding off metal to follow the different ignition curve that the pertronics ignition module I had in the engine with the SU carbs. Mid '90s I went to Solex induction and I didn't realize at the time were 50mm carbs. Now I had fuel and ignition issues but did not know this. Hard to fix a problem when you introduce two at once. The ignition curve changed dramatically. I installed a crank fired ignition system which made it easier to tune by twisting a few pots. Power before ping seems to me be the best performance but here is the bottom line, there is always a compromise with a car without a computer monitoring the motor. I use my ears, slow! I finally added an O2 sensor to properly tune it.



P.S.
The last few years the car has been running poorly. It acts like vapor lock issues which should not possible with my fuel delivery. Recently I found an ethanol free station and filled the tank with it and holey moley, this is how the car used to run!

[Lorna c]

At one time that was a popular thing to do, however, it is possible to advance the ignition past the point where it makes best power, without 'ping', and you end up decreasing overall power (increased pressure on the piston on it's way up). Not sure on these engines...

I have known some (different engine) who increased igniton timing by a couple degrees at a time, test driving each increment, until they felt power decreasing or heard detonation/ping then backed off the timing a couple degrees and called it good. Without testing on a dyno, it could be hard to really tell, and if you don't hear the 'ping' you could end up blowing your engine....
An increase in power would be an increase in efficiency...If you kept good records of your milage, before and after, you might notice a slight increase in milage over a few tanks....maybe...

On a stock engine, likely best power would be very close to factory specs, but, there will be differences from engine to engine...testing is the only way to know for sure...
With the electronic ignition and a strong coil, the increased spark energy will speed the burn over what it was stock. A more reliable/stronger spark for each cycle (less 'misses') accounts for slightly better power and milage.
Once you start modifying the engine, especially the combustion chamber (pistons/head) or porting for more air, you may actually want less timing than stock....ymmv.

yeah . it'll feel like it's hitting it slower at certain rpms ..
he said something about , the firing of the Piston at TDC or before you are pushing the Piston .. hopefully the valves are set just perfect . even if , there's still loss of power due to the Piston pushing in the next direction and having to compress that air to it's most condenced state .. when timing's advanced it opens up the air, so to speak. to allow the Piston to travel the next direction more freely , faster , and less fuel to do so . or something like that . he said allot more but I can't remember right now . I'll dig up the texts .. I'm just looking into it a touch because I've got to be open to ideas . Ithis mechanic stuff I'm just making this up as I go already . . haha my poor car . .. oh and I don't have milage on my dash . it doesn't turn ..stuck at 54k miles . I wanted to fix it but didn't work out yet .. so no true milage / fuel consumption answers on this .or I haven't thought of any yet .

[C.Costine]

That is the method that I use on one of my competition farm pulling tractors. I start at factory spec, which is altered by the EI, then fine tune it on the dyno. Then I go to the track and tweak a little according to the knock that I get or don't get under full load. I don't see it as relevant on a car unless you have it on a dyno.

[Gregs672000]

What the engine needs for timing is influenced by a few things: octane, compression, combustion chamber design, engine temps, air/fuel ratios. Consider what is happening in the engine. The pistons are going up and down very rapidly, being driven by the previous explosion that is pushing down on the piston and spinning the crank around for the next firing. The fuel takes time to explode fully. In order for that to happen, it has to be ignited at some point before the piston is already on its way down, and actually is fired in ADVANCE of the top of its travel to allow enough time for this to happen. If you don't, the fuel and the power of the charge gets wasted. However, if you fire it too soon, the engine starts to fight itself because the explosion is pushing down too much on the upcoming piston. This is bad. It causes increased heat, stress and can lead to broken parts. Ping is caused by the fuel not burning in a uniform manner, and while not desirable, a little ping is not a big deal. A knock is a problem, and a loud knock ican get serious quickly... that is the fuel exploding before or without a spark event. A stock engine should run best at stock timing with the octane that the engine was designed to use. If it pings on stock timing and expected octane, then it is likely too lean, out of tune, or would benefit from a higher octane gas that will RESIST the uninformed explosion by being less easily exploded. As noted an engine may not ping by advancing the timing a couple degrees, but it does not necessarily mean that you'll get more power out of it, and with high temps, poor fuel and high demand you may end up straining the engine unecessarily. Trying to figure out the best timing curve and at what rpm really does require a dyno or a very sensitive butt. My engine is high compression with other high performance bits on it, and in order to run 92 pump gas in it I must control the ignition timing carefully at several places in the rpm range, thus it is now running a crank fired system that allows me to set timing anywhere I want it at any rpm I want.
Best thing you could do is to set the timing to stock, check that it advances normally to about 32-36 degrees total with an advancing "dial back" timing light, and see how it runs. Advance it a degree or two and see if it's noticeably better, and if not I'd leave it stock.

[Lorna c]

I found the text we had .. here's what he said .

[Lorna c]

it's backwards sorry . (the screenshots I took )

[Lorna c]

Here is the problem I have chased for maximum performance since the early '90. All engines behave different to timing settings as well as inductions changes. I changed the distributor weights by grinding off metal to follow the different ignition curve that the pertronics ignition module I had in the engine with the SU carbs. Mid '90s I went to Solex induction and I didn't realize at the time were 50mm carbs. Now I had fuel and ignition issues but did not know this. Hard to fix a problem when you introduce two at once. The ignition curve changed dramatically. I installed a crank fired ignition system which made it easier to tune by twisting a few pots. Power before ping seems to me be the best performance but here is the bottom line, there is always a compromise with a car without a computer monitoring the motor. I use my ears, slow! I finally added an O2 sensor to properly tune it.



P.S.
The last few years the car has been running poorly. It acts like vapor lock issues which should not possible with my fuel delivery. Recently I found an ethanol free station and filled the tank with it and holey moley, this is how the car used to run!

your car likes the better gas it seems .. I've found a couple stations here that have this and I'll try it too . is there a price difference ? if it's missing something is it cheaper ? haha jk I'm sure it's not .

[Lorna c]

Here is the problem I have chased for maximum performance since the early '90. All engines behave different to timing settings as well as inductions changes. I changed the distributor weights by grinding off metal to follow the different ignition curve that the pertronics ignition module I had in the engine with the SU carbs. Mid '90s I went to Solex induction and I didn't realize at the time were 50mm carbs. Now I had fuel and ignition issues but did not know this. Hard to fix a problem when you introduce two at once. The ignition curve changed dramatically. I installed a crank fired ignition system which made it easier to tune by twisting a few pots. Power before ping seems to me be the best performance but here is the bottom line, there is always a compromise with a car without a computer monitoring the motor. I use my ears, slow! I finally added an O2 sensor to properly tune it.



P.S.
The last few years the car has been running poorly. It acts like vapor lock issues which should not possible with my fuel delivery. Recently I found an ethanol free station and filled the tank with it and holey moley, this is how the car used to run!

that O2 sensor is what I'm asking Santa for Christmas .. I really really need one of those things ! thanks for your info . I was looking at the weights thinking the same thing but didn't know if heavy or lighter would be better .but I'm not touching those ..haha no Lorna . don't grind the weights !!

[Lorna c]

What the engine needs for timing is influenced by a few things: octane, compression, combustion chamber design, engine temps, air/fuel ratios. Consider what is happening in the engine. The pistons are going up and down very rapidly, being driven by the previous explosion that is pushing down on the piston and spinning the crank around for the next firing. The fuel takes time to explode fully. In order for that to happen, it has to be ignited at some point before the piston is already on its way down, and actually is fired in ADVANCE of the top of its travel to allow enough time for this to happen. If you don't, the fuel and the power of the charge gets wasted. However, if you fire it too soon, the engine starts to fight itself because the explosion is pushing down too much on the upcoming piston. This is bad. It causes increased heat, stress and can lead to broken parts. Ping is caused by the fuel not burning in a uniform manner, and while not desirable, a little ping is not a big deal. A knock is a problem, and a loud knock ican get serious quickly... that is the fuel exploding before or without a spark event. A stock engine should run best at stock timing with the octane that the engine was designed to use. If it pings on stock timing and expected octane, then it is likely too lean, out of tune, or would benefit from a higher octane gas that will RESIST the uninformed explosion by being less easily exploded. As noted an engine may not ping by advancing the timing a couple degrees, but it does not necessarily mean that you'll get more power out of it, and with high temps, poor fuel and high demand you may end up straining the engine unecessarily. Trying to figure out the best timing curve and at what rpm really does require a dyno or a very sensitive butt. My engine is high compression with other high performance bits on it, and in order to run 92 pump gas in it I must control the ignition timing carefully at several places in the rpm range, thus it is now running a crank fired system that allows me to set timing anywhere I want it at any rpm I want.
Best thing you could do is to set the timing to stock, check that it advances normally to about 32-36 degrees total with an advancing "dial back" timing light, and see how it runs. Advance it a degree or two and see if it's noticeably better, and if not I'd leave it stock.

this is where I'm at . checking it little by little .. I've felt it "fight itself " or as I put it , "hits itself on the head" it'll feel like . and yes I backed off till that stopped . u can hear it drop on rpm sound also . almost like timing it by volt drop , but it's a sound change with rpms holding higher, you can hear it drop/change/lower in sound letting me know to go back until peak rpm sound comes back.. I still need to get the drop of distributor correct so I'm not trying to tune it in enough to see where I'm at compared to stock specks . I will be back with outcome when distributor is set properly though .. I'm still on the lobe when I hit TDC on #1 compression stroke . I wish I knew what I'm doing wrong to keep it almost the same still. somehow it ends up basically the same each time I get it to seat correctly.. it'll look right , but won't be in the end and look wrong again. . going to try again today so hopefully I'll nail it . I was closer the other day compared to where it is today I've got to get closer soon, if even by accident .

[Lorna c]

That is the method that I use on one of my competition farm pulling tractors. I start at factory spec, which is altered by the EI, then fine tune it on the dyno. Then I go to the track and tweak a little according to the knock that I get or don't get under full load. I don't see it as relevant on a car unless you have it on a dyno.

I need a Dyno . just looked that up.. yep , someday ..

[Lorna c]

my final marks I'm staying with thus far
60 dwell on dwell meeter
42 ° btdc on the #1 sparkplug
cars running strong and quick
total timing I don't have because my timing gun took a dump oh and 42°btdc is with vacuum advance hooked up still . ( a bad habit I have ).