5 spd transmission ?

[Daryl Smith]

I have read that the roadster 5 spd has been used in the Z cars, by changing the bellhousing.

I have read where a couple of people have adaptd a Z 5spd to a roadster.

After checking into this I find that the Nissan 5spds (other than the roadster) have a one piece bell/gear housing like our 4 spds. Same as the 4 spds in the Z's. ????

So....
1. Where did the bellhousing come from that they used to mount the Roadster 5 spd to the L series engine?

2. How have these people adapted the Z/SX tranny to a roadster? Cut and weld?

3. Is there another 5 spd that can work in the roadster? From an "A" series engine maybe?

Confused

[70MTroadster]

66wip,

Uno, you've got the "gears" turning in my head on this one. I dug out my How to Modify Datsun 510, 610, 240z Engine and Chassis book and here is a partial answer to your queries;

The roadster 5 speed can hooked up to an L series engine by using an early Z bellhousing, 5 speed tranny mount and the correct drive shaft....this is for the Datsun 510.

The early Z trannys had a seperate bell housing. The later ones had an intergral case.

You can put a Roadster 5 speed in a Z but you will need a; Z bell housing, a new tail housing, a new mainshaft, and the correct five-speed drive shaft for the model you are converting. The transmission must be disassembled completely to allow installing the new mainshaft. A pain the butt, if you ask me.

I'll add this paragraph, quoted directly from this book, to confuse all of us even further....."In case you do some of your parts buying in wrecking yards, you might like to know the bellhousing sections of a Z four-speed and five-speed are identical--while that of the SRL311 2000 (two-liter) roadster are different. This is because the 2000 is a U-Series engine with the starter on the opposite side. The center section (actual gearbox) of all five-speeds (except as supplied in late '72 and later Z's) is the same. The tailshaft housing for the SRL 311 and the 510 are alike; that of the Z is longer."

Remember that this book was written in 1973, contemporary to the times, and I'd bet that finding parts to do any of this is problematic. I was initially intrigued that a newer synchro Z tranny could be bolted up behind our Roadster bellhousing. It would appear though that since the center section of the early Z and the Roadster 5 speeds are the Servo Synchro style (very pricey to repair versus the later Borg-Warner single-brass-cone-synchro-system-tranny of the Roadsters and perhaps the Z cars with their intergral bellhousings) that we are doomed to suffer along with what we have.

Given what I've said here, I still love Datsuns. Many parts between models are interchangeable and modifieable, but just like an Egyptoligist, you must be able to desypher the hyrogliphifics....

Scott

[Daryl Smith]

Okay, after some discussion on the Roadster Mailing List (It is STILL a fantastic resource, a lot of knowledge over there to benefit from! And a lot of nice folks too!), some comments were made regarding deisel truck transmissions. Thanks to Ron Hamilton, Stan Chernoff, and slowboy for the info.

I went to the wreckers and was able to locate and buy one (81 - 83 Datsun Deisel P/U).

I now have a deisel truck tranny to go with the forklift motor in my sportscar!!

From looking at it I am sure it will bolt up to our cars. I will not be able to actually try it for a week or so. but it looks like a keeper. This is the same basic transmission that was used in the 200SX, 280Z & ZX, and in the 300ZX as well as almost all the pickups, and the 240SX. The difference is in the bellhousing on the deisel which moves the starter to the drivers side for our cars. A few points from visual inspection and little info I have been told (this is yet to be rock solid confirmed):

1. Same length as 4 spd, looks like same shifter position.
There are different tailshaft lengths, so this should be able to be different if required for a 5spd roadster.

2. Transmission mount is about 2" further back.

3. Speedo connection is further back, and on the opposite side

4. It is a very nice shifting transmission, and I'm told quite robust.

5. The 1600 drive shaft just slides right in.

The only things I can see that need modifications right now, are the transmission mount, and the speedo connection. I will make an update as soon as I am able to finnish the install.

Hope some of you can benefit from this info.

One last thing: **NOT CONFIRMED** I believe I read somewhere that the front half of this series of transmission is the same, whether a 4 spd or 5spd. SO..IF there was a deisel sold with a 4spd, and that is all you can find, you MAY be able to mate it with a 5spd backhalf. ***MAYBE*** I have not been able to find any info specific to the deisel trucks at all, so there is some home work for someone else to do......

I have taken some pictures of the transmission beside a roadster 4spd for comparison, but being somewhat of a computer idiot, I can't figure out how to put them up. email me and I will forward them to you.

[Victor_laury]

This is very cool. I'll be looking forward to your updates on how this works out. The FS5W71C is a very robust box! and are avialible new, as well as performance gearsets and short shifters. Please think about documenting your work for a future tech artical!

[Daryl Smith]

Update.

I picked up a low milage (135,000KMS-84,000miles) 1990, 240SX transmission because I wasn't sure about the ratios in the truck tranny, and the newer shifting mechanism is supposed to be better.

Comparing them, the 240 tranny is longer. BUT I got a tape measure out to measure the actual shifter position and the 240 tran. looks to be exactly the same as the roadster @ ~31.5" from the front face of the bellhousing to the centre of the shifter. The truck shifter position is actually about 2" shorter. I never noticed the difference between the roadster and truck because the roadster shift mechanism is missing the pin and was flopped forward, when put in it's proper place it actually hangs out past the end of the tranny.

I have been told by the transmission mechanic that the two bellhousings can be swapped. Won't know for sure till next week.

Using the 240/truck combination may require shortening the driveshaft.

[Daryl Smith]

Okay, so if I have this straight (from Victor's email below), there are potentially TWO slightly different transmissions on the deisels that we could use:

1. FS5W71B - 1981 to 1985(? maybe earlier?) deisel p/u - which is the one I have. Same length as the roadster 4spd, but shifter 2 1/2" forward. Could probably cut and weld a piece on the shifter itself to move the shifter back to useable position. 1600 driveshaft would slide right in. Unknown ratios at this point.
I put a 1600 backing plate up against it and all the important holes line up.
The bellhousing portion of this transmission requires only slight modifications to bolt up to the newer FS5W71C (email, link below)
A Nissan dealership in the area could not find a price on the bellhousing so may be NLA. Part # 32101-E916Z (from 32101-E911Z)
***I have read that the 4 spd bellhousing (of this series of transmission) is identical and could POSSIBLY(?) be swapped/modified for use.***

2. FS5W71C - 1986 to 1988 diesel P/U (?) - This transmission (different bellhousing) was used in 240SX/200SX/300ZX/Van/pickups - 1986 to 1996(?)
I have not seen one of these (diesel) yet. On a lark I phoned the dealership and the bellhousing is available out of Japan for $673.00 (Canadian). I don't know if it will work (haven't seen one), but chances are good (if it is used on the same deisel engines). This transmission (from other than deisel) will work with a modified "B" bellhousing. It is longer than the "B" so shortening the driveshaft would be required. Part # 32101-10G76 (from 32101-10G68)

Transmission mount modifications would be required with either transmission.

My install is a ways away yet. If you know any of this info to be incorrect please let me/list know.
Also if you come across a "C" transmission (deisel), I would appreciate knowing (rather than speculating) if it would work.

Thanks
Daryl

----- Original Message -----
From: Victor Laury
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: Diesel Truck/KA(240SX)


>I have been told by the transmission mechanic that the two bellhousings can be swapped. Won't know for sure till next week.

Yes it can. I saw the photos of your gear box today and found out I was mistaken. It's a FS5W71B gearbox and not the FS5W71C that I first thought. The front cases of these boxes can be swapped, with a minimal bit of machining in the countershaft bearing pocket. There's a write up on this on the web.
http://www.atlanticz.ca/zclub/techtips/ ... index.html
This is not the one I was looking for, but it's a pretty good link

Also from Victor:
1970-74 models use an F4W63 4-speed transmission.

1975-83 models use an F4W71B 4-speed transmission. or an optional FS5W71B 5-speed transmission.

1984-86 models (720-D series) also use the FS5W71B 5-speed transmission

1986-87 models (D21-D series) with the Z24i or SD25 engines use an FS5W71C 5-speed transmission, while 1988 models use an F4W71C 4-speed transmission or the FS5W71C 5-speed transmission.

1986-88 models with the VG30i engines use an FS5R30A 5-speed transmission.

[Daryl Smith]

For those that may be following this thread, I am going ahead with trying to combine the above transmissions for my roadster.
FS5w71B Deisel bellhousing with the rest being 240SX (FS5W71C).
Will post results and "how to" when I complete sections of the build.

If you follow the email list there may be more frequent updates and pictures.

[Daryl Smith]

Ok.
The transmission is built, and bolted to my stroker engine in the car.

I took lots of pictures so there will be a write up soon, but I have to finish putting the car together and take it for a drive first.

How long should it take to bolt the body down, attach all the wiring, install manifolds, carbs, rad etc in engine compartment, and install dash (mostly wired already) after Classic Instrument gauge refit?

Hopefully soon.

[67 1/2 1600]

Depends on how much time you have to work on it. It may take you months. a week. depends how much time you got on your hands.

[Daryl Smith]

Found a couple of truck manuals at a Nissan dealership and thought I would post this in case it helps anyone.


For 1984 &'85 the diesel truck 2wd 5 spd ratios were:
1st - 3.592:1
2nd - 2.057:1
3rd - 1.361:1
4th - 1.000:1
5th - 0.813:1

For same year Gasoline 2wd trucks:
1st - 3.321:1
2nd - 1.902:1
3rd - 1.308:1
4th - 1.00:1
5th - 0.833:1

Both are the FS5W71B transmissions mentioned earlier in this thread.

Cheers

[spl310]

Daryl,

Why didn't you want to use the diesel gears? They are not that far off of the 1600 4 speed gearing.

Do you have any info on if there were automatic transmissions for the diesel trucks?

[steve68]

so what i am seeing is that you can use a 240sx tranny in the roadster with a deisiel bell housing?

so if thats the case can't you do the opposite?couldn't there be a way to use a stock 5 speed on a ka or sr20?

Steve

[ppeters914]

Hey, Daryl, I just noticed that you had sent an update in January to the roadster mailing list, but not here, so, if you don't mind, I'm gonna post it now:

* To: "oliver" <sumton>, <datsun>
* Subject: Re: 5 speed
* From: "Daryl Smith" <drlsmith>
* Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 21:27:24 -0800
* References: <000601c61257> <001e01c614c9>

> What are the options for upgarding an early 67 4 speed tranny?
> Can i put in a 240/260/280 5 speed? datsun truck?
> Suggestions? Is it better to just put in the 2000 5 speed?

Easiest solution: Put in the 2000 5 speed.

But you have choices. The 260/280 5spd and the 240SX 5spd can be made to work using a diesel p/u bellhousing (or the whole transmission....). The 260/280 would be next easiest (less mods required) than the 240SX. I guess this "may" vary depending on whether you find a diesel p/u with a "B" or "C" (?)style transmission.

I used the diesel bellhousing to fit a 240SX 5spd into my '66, but I had to:

1. Do some machine work inside the bellhousing
2. Cut and weld the frame to make it fit (your install may differ)
3. Cut a chunk of "webbing" on the side of the bellhousing to clear the body on the drivers side.
4. Shorten the driveshaft.

This required that I remove the body from the frame (not that hard) and takes some time and somebody with fabricating/welding skills.

I have yet to drive the car as I haven't sorted the new engine, but hopefully very soon.

Also a "mikew" in Australia has a 260Z trans mounted:

http://www.311s.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=15520

I am a little behind on the writeup I promised the list but, have lots of pictures. If anyone would like a few let me know and I'll try to put some together in some sort of order.

Daryl

So, anything new since then?

[Daryl Smith]

See this thread for the 1st and 2nd drives with the new tranny and 1800cc R/G engine:

http://www.311s.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4002

Sid,
I didn't use the diesel because I thought the 1st gear was way to low @ 3.592 The Roadster 4spd 1st is 3.382 and I felt that was too low even for my mildy modded 1600 (now a pumped up 1800) .

The 3.321 of the 240SX tranny feels good with the 185/65/15 tires I am running now, but, if the engine turns out to be as strong as I hope, I will replace the 3.9 rear with a 3.7
My goal was to have a "spirited" driver and get into the 36-40 mpg range for everyday driving. So far The "spirited" part (engine) works quite nicely.

I am really happy with the gear ratios as they are, seems to be a nice comination which works well with my new engine, and would work well with a stock 1600 I think too because the first gear is only slightly higher.

Oh yeah, I LOVE the way this transmission SHIFTS!!! Short, positive throws that make it a breeze to drive and run through the gears.

Steve68,
Hmmm.. Nobody has expressed a desire to back up into a weaker transmission which is harder and more expensive to repair, and doesn't shift as well. I don't think the roadster 5 spd could take the extra torque of an SR or KA for very long with any kind of sporty driving.

I won't be able to get thecar out again for a couple weeks (holidays), But the transmission works beautifully!

Cheers

[Daryl Smith]

Speaking of gear ratios, the stock 240SX overdrive is a tall .759

I was worried my little 1800 would not have the torque for that so had it changed at the tranny shop while they had it apart.

Put in a .833 @ $95.