Price Appreciation

[dbrick]

I think we're all getting to the same goal in a different way. Preserve a car worth preserving.

For the purist, your car will appreciate as good examples of original cars get more and more rare, those who are not concerned with originality are building vehicles which have the value of uniqueness and craftsmanship. What we do agree on is all of us are grinning like fools, meeting really great people, and expressing ourselves in a unique way.

[Bob]

Alvin,

You do get it, and no he hasn't.

[Alvin]

Alvin,

You do get it, and no he hasn't.

Eureka! Then we have finally made progress. This is more about your purchase than price appreciation for only the "collectible" models of our roadsters, yes?

I offer my blunt, but relatively mis-informed perspective:

Your roadster is a Franken-roadster. A good one. A very desirable one. All the right parts from many different cars in one package. It's even "period" correctly modified. It is not, however, the right roadster to have as an investment or as a "superb" example of the breed. Not concours material at all, never will be. Price appreciation? Sure. But never to the degree of a real, honest to goodness 1500.

That kind of logic can be applied to any/all marques. 60's factory GT Mustangs are always valued higher than dealer-installed package or cloned GTs. Restomods, though popular are second to OEM-prepped models, or not even considered at the collector level.

Our Datsun roadsters are increasing in popularity, and demand. This very small, but influential site has drawn in a staggering amount of new ownership, like yourself!

So take a sip of glenfarclas, wait, then drive your amazing creation. You won't worry about us singing the praises of our cars because we have been doing that for a looooong time. The wind in your hair and the slight butterfly sensation in your tummy as you upshift into 3rd at redline will wipe away any thoughts of this little online community "devaluing" roadsters. You might even pass an Alfa or BMW on the way. Or sight an MG being repaired on the side of the road. Rest assured your Datsun Roadster is much more interesting and will be running troublefree instead of sitting in a garage or at a mechanic.

Oh and don't worry about Ted. Your best without a man who prefers to be topless 99% of his day-to-day life.

[Skyman]

Amen Brother!

[FairladySPL]

+1 Alvin


The wind in your hair and the slight butterfly sensation in your tummy as you upshift ...

[jamesw]

Here is another pitch for us singing the praises of our cars and letting folks know that there's no reason that a '66 Datsun 1600 can't be worth as much as a '66 Alfa Romeo spider.

Here's a rhetorical question - and this is a totally reasonable example: The two cars are sitting side by side in a field/barn. They are both in really bad shape and will each take 2000 hours to restore. The roadster costs $750 and the Alfa costs $1000. Which one is going to get restored and which one will get parted out and/or sent to the crusher?

Cheers
James

[spl310]

Good example James, but why the differential in price? Start them at the same price. Sadly, the answer will still be the same...

[FairladySPL]

James I confronted this sort of question, and the 1600 won.

I was a teenager, it was my first 311, and it was about 1975. I was just coming off a bad experience with an Austin-Healey, and dried out by having a Ford Capri for a while, but eventually got a-hankerin' for another drop top.

I was aware of the Datsun Roadster, but had never driven or really looked at one. I also was very fond of the Triumph TR-6, and the fact they were soon ending production.

For about the same money, I could get a beater of a TR-6 and start restoring it, or I could get a 1600 or a 2000 in far better condition, along with the likelihood of good performance, strong reliability, and the same wind-in-my-long-hair as the Triumph.

Today, the market value of a restored TR6 outpaces most flavors of the 311. Yet, personally, I would still tilt toward the Datsun for performance, reliability, and wind-in-what's left.

Here's why, for me. It is less satisfying to just spend money and buy into a car like the TR6. That's easy, because the market is established and stable. Meantime, you have to go out and find just the right Datsun Roadster. It may cost a lot, or it may not cost much. The point is not market value for people like me.

Ted Heaton is offering a lot of money for just the right Datsun. Notice, so far, it's not enough.

That makes me nod my head.

[Bob]

I am not at all worried about the price appreciation of my car. I did not buy it with resale in mind. I bought it because I love it. I get that some view it, even if admiringly, as a Fraken-roadster, as you say Alvin, but to me it is a fabulous, period correct car, and, did I mention that, I love it. I have had many offers to buy it at a nice profit. I don't have any desire to sell it.

My point was not about my car at all. It was about the value that should be assigned to the Datsun Roadster more generally, as compared to a number of inferior cars, in my view, whose value has escalated dramatically.

I get that we place a good value on the best of the best Datsun Roadster, but what about the rest? And, why isn't the good value for the best of the best upped by us to a premium value? Why are the lesser cars with potential often thought of as parts cars rather than as opportunities for restoration?

My point was, and is, that when it comes to the value for Datsun Roadsters, which we profess to appreciate and admire, and I know we do, too often this site and those on it are in a position to move the value needle more than a little bit, but we don't. I think we should. These cars are coming into their own as collectibles. Encouraging that will help, I think, to preserve what remains. I see that as a good thing.

[JohnnyMac]

Are you suggesting that instead of supply and demand determining value, that a little market manipulation is in order?

[OldYeller]

It's about market force economics. Scarcity (aka Supply) and Demand are the two primary determinate factors. Roadsters certainly have scarcity down cold, so demand seems to be the driver of the price for these Roadsters and I would say in general, demand is just not there compared to other cars and selling prices generally support this theory. The next obvious question is why.

What I see being the driver of a lot of collectibles are a) They were prestige perceived and priced AND rare to start with (Mercedes 190S for example) and have remained so for some time or b) They were popular with many made (sometimes in the millions) and today are (relatively speaking) rare (Mustang, Barracuda) or in the case of some were populist and rare at the same time as they existed in some subset (429 Boss Mustang or Plum Crazy 'Cuda Hemi convertible with white interior and factory AC anyone?).

It seems to me that the case with Roadsters is that they were offered as a) affordable options to other (prestige) priced cars and b) with the exception of the 67.5's were basically all the same since there were little or no options, especially compared to other cars of that era that capitalized on motorsport heritage either superficially or in the flesh (hello AC Corbra!). Lastly, c) they lack some of the significant documentation that other cars have, i.e.: there is no Marti Report for a Roadster.

However, Johnny Mac bring up an interesting idea. What if suddenly prices were raised - either by market forces (Roadsters suddenly appeared in commercials, Sports or movie star influencers suddenly wanted them, or through collusion by us, the owners/sellers? Unless our cars were a necessary good (like gas or food), the law of price elasticity of demand indicates that as prices rise, the demand will fall. Some might still sell but eventually others would not because it is all about the perceived value of something and furthermore, there would eventually be a settling of an average price unless again over time, some other market force were to somehow increase the perceived value and though inflation is a market force that increases price, it is not going to increase the price relative to the purchasing power of a dollar so it has a nil effect for the purposes of this argument. In short, you can't just raise the price, even if everyone does it at the same time. This then reverts back to the previous assertion that, overall, demand for these cars is relatively speaking, low.

Honestly, I don't really care about value other than insurance value or the cost of parts. I am not planning on selling my car that I have owned for 25 years. It has outlived cities, garages, girlfriends, marriage, houses and just about anything else in my life but a few friends and family members.

Lastly and most importantly, and perhaps this is just me though I suspect differently, I have found that often times the very thing that drew me towards something - music, art, my career, cars, was the fact that it was offbeat or quirky AND had a certain aesthetic or qualitative aspect to it. A Datsun Roadster is that to a D and that is EXACTLY why I like them and I suspect why so many in this community seem to have an affinity for not only the car, but each other.

[dbrick]

Steven made me think about this. I always try to take the road less traveled, or at least give it a good look.
Just yesterday, I was in a convenience store buying coffee. The corporate approved Muzak was playing. It was The Patti Smith Group, "Redondo Beach", not a really common track. In the last year or 2 I've heard Kraftwerk, Nena, early Clash, early Elvis Costello and similar stuff (but no Sex Pistols) in office buildings and stores on the background music. This was the way-off-the mainstream music I listened to in the late 70's, College Radio/CBGB stuff. Most of my friends thought it was freak music, you couldn't get it in the suburban record stores etc. Now it's becoming acceptable mainstream and cool. My Roadster got the same reaction from the same friends in 1983.
Tastes change. One day, Datsuns will suddenly become cool, so get a seat before the music stops
Now I have to go MP3 hunting on those scary Russian sites.

[theunz]

Lots of good points made here, I think Steven pretty well nailed it. I think the Datsuns will someday match the prices of their European counterparts. They will however never reach Porsche, Mercedes, or Ferrari prices. The European sports cars were made popular by returning GI's after World War II. As they ( and their children) got older they were willing to spend more and more money to again drive the cars they so fondly remembered. Remember we had a lot of allies in Europe and a lot of service men stationed there. Japan was a different story though, no allies and they fought what many have said was a tougher battle (not that any war is not brutal). There seemed to be a greater disdain for the Japanese and their products in the 50's and 60's. I personally remember ( growing up in the 60's) the feeling that all things from Japan was cheap junk. It wasn't until the 80's that we in the US started to see the quality and value of the Japanese products. With each new generation the hurt of the war and the poor reputation of early Japanese quality is forgotten. Each successive generation will look at our cars without bias and be able to judge them against the European cars of their era, a contest we will often win. With the low number of Datsuns available vs. Eurpeon cars the Datsuns are sure to catch up and likely exceed their price. Mike

[mraitch]

I don't want my roadster to be a collectible, I don't want ANY roadster to be a collectible, I want to see them on the street, on rallys, being driven and both being enjoyed and bringing enjoyment to others. I don't want them in museums being admired and quiet. I don't care if an MGB,MGA,TR??/Healey attracts more money.
Scott's roadster travelled 30K plus miles. Is he likely to do that in a classic??
Look up Peking to Paris races - people run (in many cases) irreplaceable cars (vintage Bentleys being my personal favorite) - wow - they run, they break, they get fixed.
Vintage racing (at least on the west coast - according to VARA people I know) is diminishing because people are concerned about damaging their cars. And in a sense I don't blame them - but there is a huge loss. Cars are meant to be driven (and perhaps admired)
I bought my roadster(s) because I enjoyed and used them, I bought my Bentley for the same reason - and I couldn't care less about the value of a car sitting in a garage.
FWIW

[spl310]

Lots of old Bugatti race cars still get thrashed with regularity - or at least they used to when I kept up with these things.