Running at Sears Point/ Infinion on the 8th.

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Running at Sears Point/ Infinion on the 8th.

Post by SLOroadster »

I'll be running a track day on the 8th (Yes thats a Thursday) at Sears Point with Trackmasters Racing. The goal is for a good test and tune day with the mono-leaf springs. I have 2 sets of race tires, and I'm fully prepared to run them till I drop. 8) Its been 3 years since I have run a track day, the last being Thunderhill back in July of 06.

It will also be my first time running bias ply Hoosier Street TDs (any tire pressure suggestions?) I also have the set of 225/50/14 Hankook C71s that I have run autoXing a few times. The Hoosiers are 205s, so either way I have a nice foot print. I have to say the car is the most settled its ever been through a corner since I started building it 7 years ago. Still I'm going to feel things out for the first session. They did let me in to an open passing with point by group so I should get some good practice setting up a pass and being able to go around people.

I will be shooting in car video so hopefully that will come out well. I'm looking for 2 min laps by the end of the day.

Will
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Re: Running at Sears Point/ Infinion on the 8th.

Post by RC240z »

Hi Will,

Do you have a way of taking tire temps as that will tell you what is and is not working as far as pressures?

I ran Hoosier Street TD's this last weekend and they are fun, they do not stick like a radials though so expect the car to slide around a bit more. Breakaway will be at a lower G-load, but they will give you lots of warning that they are not gripping.

As a starting point, I would run 25 lbs front and 24.5 lbs in the rear. My car liked a little more pressure in the drivers front, because I am a big guy so I ran 25.5 lbs in the drivers front side tire. With these tires more pressure (up to some undetermined point) makes the car stick better.

Ron
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Re: Running at Sears Point/ Infinion on the 8th.

Post by SLOroadster »

I should be able to get my hands on a laser thermometer. The good news is that if I don't like the 205 Hoosiers, I can always switch to the 225 Hankooks. I have to say from experience, Sears Point is not really a course you wish to be sliding around on. There is pretty much a concrete wall at every turn. We'll see how it turns out.

Thanks for those pressure numbers.

Will
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Re: Running at Sears Point/ Infinion on the 8th.

Post by RC240z »

Keep in mind a laser temp is okay but not as good as a real tire temp gauge that you stick into the tire.

Have fun!!

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Re: Running at Sears Point/ Infinion on the 8th.

Post by Mike Unger »

Hi Guys,
I use these tires in vintage all the time on the Z car and we use them on a 510 as well. If anything, I'd say your on the high side for pressures. Remember, these bias ply tires work best with much less camber than radials. Generally, less than a degree negative.

Mike
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Re: Running at Sears Point/ Infinion on the 8th.

Post by SLOroadster »

I'm running about 2 degrees negative, perhaps just a hair less. My Hankooks, want more camber, at least that is what it feels like autoXing on them, but I'll see how they feel on the track, the corners are much more open. I think the understeer could be dialed out with tire pressure as I was still trying to compensate for the tail happy monster that I had. Currently the car is setup pretty soft, but the springs are infact not soft at all. I have the shocks set full soft and its nice on the street, but I might stiffen them up as the day progresses. As is, with the front shocks set full stiff, the car would understeer at the limit on a sharp autoX style corner, I won't have any of those to deal with. I'm really not sure what it will do now that its set up soft. It did feel really good through a 25 mph onramp last night. I had to slow down to 60 to merge into traffic, and that was on my dead street tires.

I'm not expecting to put down a super fast lap with either set of tires. They both came out of the discard pile and were likely put there for a good reason. The Hoosiers have more tread left on them, but they could be heat cycled out, I don't know. They look good and are way light. I'm not sure what a good time in a roadster will be around the track, my friend runs 2 min laps in his 914-6 (2.6L), but I'm pretty sure he is heavier and has a little less power. He does have a more advanced suspension in the rear. That said, the back end feels really good. You wouldn't know there were leaf springs under there. I might be able to find a little time through the esses since the car is narrow and there is the chance I can take a straighter line.

By this time next week, I should know the answer, and have some good video to go over.

Will
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Re: Running at Sears Point/ Infinion on the 8th.

Post by RC240z »

Mike thanks for your input. All I know is what I ran on my car, and what worked...I do have very limited experience with the Hoosier street TD's.

It seemed any less pressure caused the car to get looser in the rear in particular and I was happy with the grip at the afore mentioned pressures.

Will I run about the same amount of camber that you do with very similar alignment specifications. I do agree that the Street TD's would like less camber, but like Will, I too run two sets of tires and have to set up for the better tires generally.
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Re: Running at Sears Point/ Infinion on the 8th.

Post by SLOroadster »

Oh man what a day. The weather started off with some high fog, but things cleared off about noon or so. The first session was a bit sketchy, my tires would not stick well at all and the car would not take a good line pretty much anywhere. The second session was much like the first, however the tires stuck a little better once the sun came out. I was doing a lead follow with a guy who was new to track driving and had WAY too much car. It was a 914 that is box flared out running 10 inch wide wheels, powered by a 300+hp 3.5 liter twin plug flat 6. The car was a former GT2 class winner. The guy who built it spend a good $100+K, but sold it for about $22k. The car is 1800lbs. Basically far too much car for someone who has only done one autoX before. The instructor who was working with him knows me and so I tried to lead him around the track showing more or less the correct line. That said, I found myself giving never ending point-bys while I waited for him only to have all the corner workers flying the pass flag at me every lap.

For the 3rd session I switched over to the Hoosier Street TDs (bias ply vintage tires.) At first I thought there was something drastically wrong with my car because it was vibrating and shaking violently (like I was driving over a washboard dirt road at just the wrong speed.) I thought about coming in to see what the issue was, but it would go away at slower speeds, and I had gone past the pit entry anyway. I set out for the second lap and the vibration was less, but still pretty bad, and only at certain speeds. As I came down into the breaking zone for turn 7, suddenly the vibration went away and the car took a nice set, and I was able to take the best line through the corner yet. Soon I was really starting to get used to the tires and finding they worked pretty well. I also found I could take lines that I was trying to take on the Hankooks with ease. I was not fast but the car was starting to work better. I found myself giving less point bys and turning faster laps.

The 4th session things really started to come together. I was going to take a passenger out but we were stopped on grid because he didn't have any glasses. I had to exit grid and go back around pretty much missing a lap and merging into fast traffic coming up to turn 2. It was a little unnerving to try and take turn two at speed on cold tires that move around a little. I found that it takes about half a lap or so for the tires to start to get some heat in them and stick. By my 3rd lap, things started to come together, but I kept finding 5th gear on downshifts rather than 3rd ( every time I went for 3rd, I got 5th.) Soon I gave up and was pulling 4th through pretty much the whole course (the car didn't quite have enough momentum through 2 to do that well. Turns 7 and 11 were not a big deal, but 2 was.) I started to push the car a little more and the tires started to really stick well.

5th session I was first to grid and was feeling pretty good about the car and the tires. I had to give a few quick point bys to faster cars who's tires were sticking better than my still cold ones. Soon the tires came up to temp and I was starting to pull some cars back. Going into the braking zone for 10, I glanced down at the tach and found I was turning 7K in 4th and the car was feeling pretty solid. I tapped the brakes so I wouldn't over cook turn 10 (and eat the wall) and railed through the inside on the rumble strip. By this time I had and Infinity of some sort behind me, and of course the pass flag would come out except he was too far back to pass me unless I slowed down a lot. He would close the gap on the run up to 2, then I would pull away till 7 where he would be closer, but still not close enough to pass, and I would pull away through the esses and back down to turn 11 (where I was finding 3rd rather than 5th for the most part.)

I video taped all but my first session, however when I downloaded them to my computer, it downloaded as a single still picture (Kinda ticked because the last session was pretty good and far better than all the previous ones.) I did shoot 2 sessions with a video camera so when I get those I'll post them, but they aren't very good (driving wise). The Street TDs are fun tires. I was able to rail turn 6 on the inside and exit pretty tight as well. Aside from the first few laps of horrible vibration, they are a score.

The car felt really good all in all. It was very neutral through the corners once the tires took set. (Hoosiers) The rear springs made a huge difference. The rumble strips built into the corner berms were no big deal where they used to be something to be avoided at all costs even driving at 70% speed. I think the car still has a lot left in it and I was leaving lots of time on the track still. As I said, the final session I was starting to get my act together and was only passed by some serious big power cars (read Ferraris, turbo time attack Miatas, a new Shelby GT500 and a new Skyline.) It wasn't bad for being the first track event I've done in 3 years. No I wasn't all that fast, but I made a big improvement by the end of the day. I ended up running 24 psi in the tires, and they felt pretty good. They are different, but not in a bad way. I think I might go try them autoXing since they have more grip than my Hankooks, but I'm not sure they will warm up at all.

I think I'm going to try to get one more track day in this year. We'll see.

I'll post video as soon as I can.

Will
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Re: Running at Sears Point/ Infinion on the 8th.

Post by RC240z »

Hi Will,

Fantastic write up. Glad to hear that the car did so well. Looks like you are starting to tame this beast.

24lbs all the way around interesting...I usually run a little more pressure in the front than the rear. But, It does sound like the car is working for you and that is great.

You should get more grip with the Hankooks, but they could be heat cycled out. Also, the Toyo RA-1's are coming back, and they seem to last forever, so you might want to seek a pair of 205-50-15's for your roadster. My video overlay shows my maximum cornering G to be about .86 with the Street TD's and .96 with the RA1's (Please keep in mind that this is just a comparison and not super accurate numbers).

It sounds like the car is more manageable, and fun to drive, and it sounds like the suspension mods and the tires are helping your confidence which is always good news. Sounds like at the end of the day the car and the driver were doing really well!

The vibration could have been from a flat spot or a tire goober on the tire that caused that vibration. Sounds like under braking you cleared off the tires and they worked perfectly...

What would you change now? where do you feel your car is deficient?
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Re: Running at Sears Point/ Infinion on the 8th.

Post by SLOroadster »

The car is nicely manageable. I think a set of Kuhmo V710s in a 205 would be awesome, however I'm not sure the 225s are worth the extra weight. I could look into a set of Toyo R888s as well. I think toward the end of the day I was pushing the car hard enough that the brakes were either off gassing or getting too hot. I'm still running the Blue KFPs, perhaps the Golds are now in order. I also need new rotors as mine are on the thin side. I think the back end could come down more, that would lower my center of gravity as well. I have a couple of pictures coming out of turn 1 into the braking zone of 2 and the car looks pretty good. I discovered way late in the day that I didn't really need to brake for 2, just burn off momentum as I run up the hill and downshift to 3rd to exit. The current setup is really flexible. I started off using 2nd though all the corners that I was later pulling 3rd through. It was an unnecessary shift. A few times I pulled 4th through the entire lap, and exiting 2and 11, it was too tall but would do it. I'd kinda like to be able to go deeper into corners and standing on the brakes, but again I'm not sure if this was pad related, rotor related, or just not committing to the brakes hard enough. (Likely a little of all the above.) Because Sears Point has so much elevation change some of the corners become tricky to enter, but you can pull a taller gear out of them because its a downhill run and you can save a shift. I think my single most blaring and irritating issue I had was that I could not find 3rd gear when I needed it. 5th is not the gear of choice to exit a 40 mph corner in. (It pretty much guarantees at least one spot lost if you have anyone even close behind you.)

I went into the day driving very conservatively, and was a little frustrated with myself early on as I was pretty much giving everyone a point by. I had no intention to go out and run 100% because I didn't want to possibly eat a wall (and there are lots of those).

I post some pics and video (hopefully) later.

Will
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Re: Running at Sears Point/ Infinion on the 8th.

Post by GeoffM »

Hey Will, Great write-up!
I love racing sims and have spent hours rounding Infineon in the virtual world. I can only hope to do it in the real world one day.

Could you describe the line through the sweeper 6 and the set-up and line through 7/7a? Also, is 2 pretty much blind because of the elevation change?

Cheers,
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Re: Running at Sears Point/ Infinion on the 8th.

Post by SLOroadster »

GeoffM wrote:Hey Will, Great write-up!
I love racing sims and have spent hours rounding Infineon in the virtual world. I can only hope to do it in the real world one day.

Could you describe the line through the sweeper 6 and the set-up and line through 7/7a? Also, is 2 pretty much blind because of the elevation change?

Cheers,
Sounds like someone has been playing GT4 8) Do you have the roadster for it? Turn 6 is kinda different with a roadster. My line started with a quick brake check at the crest of the hill (4th gear) and I set up on the inside middle of the track at neutral throttle. As I progressed through the corner I continued inside till I was on the berm at the exit. I did find a line that carried plenty of speed out of the corner but I didn't drift out to the opposite side of the track. I'd get out into the middle but in line with the left side of the track leading up to 7. Turns 7 and 7A don't really have a line. Its slow no matter what you do. One method is start wide and make a smooth arch through both corners with the right side tires on the inside berms. Another line is to late brake and run it like a decreasing radius corner. I was pulling this in 3rd gear, but doing it in 4th really wasn't that much slower when I got down to 8 where I would have to check my speed anyway. 7 and 7a are a strange set of corners and there are many different ways to get through them. None of which are really bad. The braking zone is more important. 8a is also an interesting corner because its sort of blind and fast. I discovered a line that took me off the race line but only because I didn't need to be that far over to the left. I could late apex it carrying full speed and instead of drifting out to the left like the heavier cars were, I would ride the berm and not even carry half way out to the middle of the track. This would allow me less steering the car through 9 (closer to a straight shot) and there for more speed because I wouldn't bleed any off. I was making up ground on faster cars here. I would then give it all back through 10 because I'm afraid of 10. If you blow 10, odds are you are eating K-rail and tire-wall. That said, with better tires, I might be able to carry 5th gear from the exit of 8a all the way down to 11. Turn 11 is one of those that you just sort of get through. I was having issues on corner exit because the car would start to step the back end out as I rolled on the power. I had no issues pulling it in 3rd (that is unless I found 5th instead. That didn't work so well.) Turn 1 is a little scary because you are really moving. Its wide open and easy, but the exit dictates where you end up on the track setting up for 2. Turn 2 is a tricky corner (especially on cold bias plys). As I came up the hill, I would setup to brake at the outside berm as you go under the bridge. I tried to have all my braking done by the end of it. There are several lines through the corner, most people apex early and drift out toward to the berm on the other side of the track. The downside of this line is that you have to swing back over to the left side to setup for turn 3. The line I started using at the end of the day had me apexing just a little later but it allowed me to pretty much make a straight run down to turn 3. I'd grab 4th gear almost as soon as the back end was planted, about 1/3rd of the way to turn 3. (In other words I'd let the car get settled then grab the gear as soon as I could. The back end was a little twitchy and romping on the power too early would have put me in the dirt some place.) The lack of mass allows for some different lines that aren't open to other cars. Turns 3 and 3a are much like turn 2, but closer together. If you used a late apex into 3, you could use an early apex through 3a that would point you to the left side of the track and the braking zone for 4. I was pulling 4th through 4 and not loosing any ground. I was out of the power band just a little bit, however it was a downhill run and I was ending up back on the race line and right on the edge of traction through 5.

As strange as this may sound, GT4 is very accurate. I set the roadster up in the game as close to what I have in real life (it took a long time since the settings in the game don't really have anything to do with real life.) The game has me lapping in 1:55, but one can push it in the game without fear of eating a wall. In real life, caution comes into play and time is left on the track. I was talking with the instructor who was in the monster 914 GT2 car and they were running 2:18s and I was way ahead of them (They started 2 cars behind me most laps and I couldn't see them in my mirrors after turn 4 of the first lap.) The instructor thinks I was someplace in the 2:05-2:10 range. The monster 914 has run a 1:40 in its current setup at Sears Point just to put it into perspective (Previous owner).

I was back out at the track today and got to look at some photos take at different places on the track. From the front, my car was very flat through turn 2. The body roll that I see in pictures from autoXs is not there ( I guess that says something about the corners in an autoX) The car looks really good. I got to ride along with a guy in a 240Z with a Rebello 3.1L stroker who was running 1:50s and my braking zones were similar, but the more interesting thing I noticed was I think I was much smoother at the wheel. The guy I was riding with is fast and very experienced, yet he was really sawing at the wheel. The car was planted, but he was really making a lot of movement at the wheel. I had to make a few minor corrections every so often but it was because the car was in a drift (but very smooth and orderly. Not like its former tail happy eager to swap ends mood.) It let go with both ends at the same time and all it took were a few small light movements to catch it without much of a change in line. (Always the exit of turns 2, 7a and 11.)

Now the bad news. None of the 4 sessions of tape came out. I guess I didn't start the camera so I got nothing off my friends setup. My computer ate the video off my digital. (I'm dialing 911, I was robbed.) :? I do have some pictures that I will post as soon as I get the ok from the photographer.

Will
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Re: Running at Sears Point/ Infinion on the 8th.

Post by SLOroadster »

Got clearance for the pictures. http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2 ... e8c446e9bc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I hope that works

Will
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Re: Running at Sears Point/ Infinion on the 8th.

Post by GeoffM »

GT4 took up lots of my time before GTL/GTR came out. Couldn't figure out how to get the Roadster though.

Now, it's all about iRacing.com. In fact, I'm d/ling Infineon as I type this. I only have a rookie licence so I can only race on Laguna Seca and Lime Rock for now, but you can test on any track you have purchased.

Apparently the guys at iRacing go around the track with a laser scanner so every bump in the track and visual reference point is true to life.
Edit: heres a video
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Sorry for the derail....great pics by the way.
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Re: Running at Sears Point/ Infinion on the 8th.

Post by SLOroadster »

I haven't heard about Iracing.com. The line the guy takes in the video is pretty much the normal line except they cut out half the track and added in the section for cars that aren't supposed to turn right (what can I say, I hate NASCAR.) Through 3 and 3a, my apex was way earlier and more agressive. The same out of 8a as well. Turn 10 was about the same.

To find the roadster in GT4, look in the Historic showroom. Its not always there but if you keep checking it will eventually pop up.

Will
Sorry, I find modern engine swaps revolting. Keep your G, R, or U series in your Roadster!
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