"I'm Not a Car Guy." - A 1967.5 1600 Refurb Saga

[iloveredmeat]

Trying to catch up, so pretty soon my progress posts can be "real-time"-ish.

Mirrors!

I redid my mirrors a bit ago. The frames were in solid shape, but the glass was totally useless.





The hardest part was finding a place to do them, followed closely by how much they charged me. But, they did a fine job.

The first thing they did was to cut and remove the old glass which they kept for sizing.





And so I was able to take home the bases and clean them all up.

Especially for the round metal sideview mirror which had some rust on the inside on the pivot hardware.



The outside is in pretty darn good shape, not needing a replate or anything, so I got that all tidied up.







For the black plastic rearview mirror, I stripped and prepped the metal base. For the plastic, it has a little texture so I didn't sand it or anything. I simply scrubbed it clean and then used Krylon Fusion Flat Black paint which worked great on both the metal base and the plastic. Virtually identical looking to original.
















I then took them back to the glass shop so they could finish the job. Regarding the sideview mirror – the original glass was beveled, and then the metal lip must have been pressed around the bevel of the glass, so it sort of wedged the glass under the lip of the metal. The mirror place didn't dare 'straighten' the lip of the metal, so they did a little teeny bevel on the glass just the right size to snap into the metal. They put some silicone underneath for adhesion, and it's virtually imperceptible.

The rearview was a simpler job by virtue of the flexibility of plastic, so that mirror just snapped in. I will hand paint the screw black on the rearview once installed.

One more little thing done to satisfaction!

[theunz]

Nice work. It’s amazing how many parts can be saved with a little work and or money. Sometimes a fair amount of both

[Gregs672000]

Nice! You're going to know almost every nut and bolt! Personal satisfaction for sure!

[Pjackb]

Great job on the mirrors came out nice ,
I did my rearview a while back also but didn't think of going to a glass place and replacing the mirror itself , how much did that cost you ?

One recommendation for all interior trims is to use SEM Landau or Satin black, it's more expensive but the color and texture fit better with the rest of the vinyl

[iloveredmeat]

Nice! You're going to know almost every nut and bolt! Personal satisfaction for sure!

Thanks Greg, I guess there is a benefit to "remote restoration"... the very few parts I have with me do get a disproportionate amount of attention... (see the massive undertaking to fix my wiper pump ) and I am certainly learning a lot as I go.

Great job on the mirrors came out nice ,
I did my rearview a while back also but didn't think of going to a glass place and replacing the mirror itself , how much did that cost you ?

One recommendation for all interior trims is to use SEM Landau or Satin black, it's more expensive but the color and texture fit better with the rest of the vinyl

Thanks Jacques! The cost for both was $180(!)... I was originally quoted $90-100 to do BOTH (or that's how I understood it)... so I don't know if he misread his notes when I picked up, or if I misunderstood him when I dropped them off. He did tell me "the parts are about $2, it's the time you're paying for". After he had explained the process of the sideview mirror, and shaping it so precisely and smartly, I can't really argue. It was also surprisingly and maddeningly difficult to find someone who would even do it in the first place!

I haven't tried the paints you're talking about, but I made a point to mention that Krylon because I did spot tests with it, and it really was as close to exactly original as I could ever hope for.

I don't know how the paint will work on other parts, but I lucked out that it matched my rearview.

[iloveredmeat]

Quick recap.

Bought the car sight unseen.

Engine was frozen.

My brother, a former race car driver, calls in a favor to his long-time friend (and engine-builder) Dave to take on my project.

This is what we gave Dave... yikes.

BEFORE
























AFTER –



Just kidding... that's one of my brother's many projects... it's a wonder he takes the time to help me at all!

During my glowing box research, and a brand new member to 311s.org, I saw a post from the second coolest guy on 311s – search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keywords=funkaholik - who was selling his original carbs and having a stroker built by same shop, coincidentally. I reached out to ask questions about that... and I'll say that he was so helpful right off the bat – I credit him with leading me in the right direction. Even though we've never met in person, we've since become friends. He keeps doing me huge favors, and tallying up a big ol' beer tab that I owe.

Anyway, our engines got dyno'd the same week and he was nice enough to take pics and videos.

Here it is.
















My brother and Dave discussed how I was going to drive (street), and that we primarily wanted low-end torque. They talked a bunch of mumbo-jumbo that I didn't understand (still don't) about dishing pistons, travel, duration, etc... but if I think I see what I think I see, I'm very happy with what this shows.

Here are the numbers (though I understand these are relative).

Correct me if I'm wrong:

188 HP @ 5600 RPM
176 Torque @ 5300 RPM



YouTube links below. Turn up the volume people.





Not surprisingly, @funkaholik pulled more power and more torque - because he has to be better than everyone else - somehow he picked the day that had a really strong tailwind in the dyno booth.

(hashtag sarcasm)

Actually, I mention the disparity because it's interesting to me.

We have very similar setups, but there's a noticeable difference between our results. Erik got just about 200 HP at 6500 and 185.6 Torque at 5000.

And if it's interesting to me, it's probably even more interesting to you smart guys. I'm tempted to start a thread on this because I'd love to hear how y'all think about this stuff. Seems to me that there is an art to building these strokers, and probably a zillion different ways to skin the stroker cat...

viewtopic.php?p=324166#p324166

I'll never ever notice it, but those aren't insignificant numbers at 6+% and 5+%.

The one significant difference is that my carbs are 44 Mikunis that I bought from 311's beloved Simon @2mAn after his misfortune. I hope he's happy with where his carbs landed, and how I'm trying to do them justice in my build. These were rebuilt by Kyusha House, and are simply gorgeous! Kyusha also kindly offered to tune them on my trip back to San Diego from up North.



@funkaholik has Dave Premo 40 Mikunis... also gorgeous.

Another difference is that our engine projects were headed by different mechanics in the same shop, though both were built to the 'same specs'.

I know that Dave R and Dave P have differing opinions on which carbs perform better on a 1600 stroker, and if we look at the numbers, bigger isn't necessarily better??? But can this all be attributed to the carbs???

Regardless, I am so stoked. It's going to be amazing.

[funkaholik]

Wow. Peter, I never realized just how ugly your engine was when you brought it in! The rocker area is downright frightening. Looks like it might have been burning a wee bit of oil, too. The transformation is so much more amazing seeing what you started with. And, I must admit - your carbs are prettier than mine.

"Regardless, I am so stoked. It's going to be amazing." Stoked to be stroked. Wait a minute. Get your minds out of the gutter, people! I'm talking about his engine.

[funkaholik]

Oh, and a question for your brother about the Mangusta engine: is it one of the early K-code 289's or the later 302's?

[iloveredmeat]

Wow. Peter, I never realized just how ugly your engine was when you brought it in! The rocker area is downright frightening. Looks like it might have been burning a wee bit of oil, too. The transformation is so much more amazing seeing what you started with. And, I must admit - your carbs are prettier than mine.

"Regardless, I am so stoked. It's going to be amazing." Stoked to be stroked. Wait a minute. Get your minds out of the gutter, people! I'm talking about his engine.

Oh my gosh...

Keep in mind, I bought the car sight unseen. And when I first saw the outside, I was a bit underwhelmed... I did not want a project... but it had character and substance...

To every question I had, my brother said "no problem". And I had unwittingly fallen in love with it like you fall in love with a rescue puppy.

So, I figured I could rub some soap and water on it and the outside would polish right up...

And when we pulled the cover and I saw that rusty mess... I almost barfed.

But my brother said "no problem"...

And here we are.

Oh, and a question for your brother about the Mangusta engine: is it one of the early K-code 289's or the later 302's?

I have no idea, but I will ask. The story of how he got it is one of years of persistence and a long, midnight run in a motorhome full of cash. He bought it completely disassembled on palettes, and he has been painstakingly assembling it piece by piece for a loooong time. It is so cool!

[Gregs672000]

Wow, those are really great Results! Again, we will have a very nice comparison between crank and wheels if you ever choose to put it on a chassis dyno. Would love to see what the cam specs are in these motors. With peak torque at 5000+ it probably has more duration. It would be very interesting to see what the torque is from 2500-peak. My U20 with a 280 duration peaked at 4700, but it was starting to overfuel and drown itself so that may be somewhat influenced.

As you said, bigger isn't always better with carbs. I've heard that a typical Alfa twin cam of the same era produces more usable power with 40mm carbs vs 45. I don't have numbers yet, but I was worried that I would lose some bottom end torque going from 45mm carbs with 37mm chokes to 40mm throttle bodies, but I can tell I have picked up torque everywhere.

I'm very excited for you! Certainly a different motor from what you started with eh? Congratulations!

[23yrRebuild]

I've been following every page of this thread,...and yes, it's already been said...but I really MUST weigh in, and agree with others when I say...."Bud..you ARE a "CAR GUY"....whether that was your intention or not !
As a stroker owner, I would welcome any past, present, and future build information, and any other better ways, or theories, on how to skin the Stroker cat, from ANYONE. So, I would like to encourage you to also refer, and add your specs and comments to the "Stroker Poll", anytime it's convenient.
Mike

[iloveredmeat]

Wow, those are really great Results! Again, we will have a very nice comparison between crank and wheels if you ever choose to put it on a chassis dyno. Would love to see what the cam specs are in these motors. With peak torque at 5000+ it probably has more duration. It would be very interesting to see what the torque is from 2500-peak. My U20 with a 280 duration peaked at 4700, but it was starting to overfuel and drown itself so that may be somewhat influenced.

As you said, bigger isn't always better with carbs. I've heard that a typical Alfa twin cam of the same era produces more usable power with 40mm carbs vs 45. I don't have numbers yet, but I was worried that I would lose some bottom end torque going from 45mm carbs with 37mm chokes to 40mm throttle bodies, but I can tell I have picked up torque everywhere.

I'm very excited for you! Certainly a different motor from what you started with eh? Congratulations!

Hey, thanks Greg, I'm pretty darn excited myself! Itching to get up and work on the car, it's been over 4 months! Aaaargh.

I've been following every page of this thread,...and yes, it's already been said...but I really MUST weigh in, and agree with others when I say...."Bud..you ARE a "CAR GUY"....whether that was your intention or not !
As a stroker owner, I would welcome any past, present, and future build information, and any other better ways, or theories, on how to skin the Stroker cat, from ANYONE. So, I would like to encourage you to also refer, and add your specs and comments to the "Stroker Poll", anytime it's convenient.
Mike

Hi Mike,

Ha! Thank you... Isn't there a saying that proclaims "You become what you fear the most."? Maybe that's what's happening to me!

I'm really enjoying the project and having fun learning stuff that has been pretty foreign to me up to this point. And this forum has been instrumental in my having fun and learning.

And as for stroker build specs, I'm a little embarrassed, but I honestly don't know any of the specs other than 2150 displacement, "street cam", 34mm exhaust valve, 43mm intake valve... and that's it.

When my brother told me we were going to have Dave build it, he and I talked a bit about what I might want – street/low-end torque/not an-ultra-high-performance-race-build that Dave normally gets called on to do.

So, I put all my trust in Dave and my brother to come up with the build plan. Dave really worked with me, worked hard to build me exactly what I wanted with an eye on what I wanted to invest. I can't say enough about how good the experience has been, he's a great guy.

I will try to get any info he'd like to share, and will post it on that Stroker Poll when I get it.

This is a huge milestone, so thanks again for the high-fives.

pm

[FairladySPL]

Excellent story, start to finish. Thanks for sharing, with photos!

[funkaholik]

Here's something else important: that dyno graph doesn't tell the whole story. Looking closely at the picture, the numbers listed at right (188hp, 176tq) are both at 5600 rpm, where the white vertical line is on the graph. The hp carries through and even peaks up a little at about 5800. The torque is already on its way down at 5600, and looks like it peaked at 5200, at about 182. Dave will have a printout for you of the numbers every 100 rpm, but I'd say your actual peaks are going to be something like 189hp @ 5800, 182tq @ 5200. Here's a cropped look at that graph:



Looking back at what I texted you that day, I think those numbers are wrong and these are more accurate. Hey, I'd just been in a dyno cell while they were winging your engine up to 6500 rpm, so I may have been a little out of it / giddy with excitement.

I love that the torque stays above 150 from around 3600 all the way past 6000 rpm. This engine is going to be absolutely amazing in your little car.

[nismou20]

Wow! What a transformation