Price Appreciation

[Alvin]

It feels like a loop to me, not moving toward agreement or resolution. Your points of view are already among the elements in the big picture that you suggest we try to see. Many, if not all of your points have been confronted, some discussion response was requested, and you failed to participate. Now it feels repetitive, or, a loop.

This is because, if they're like myself, I'm in it for the enjoyment of the car, not the monetary return these cars may or may never represent.

I have enjoyed seeing the $50,000 auction sale recently of one specific example of 311. But the value of that affirmation is completely lost on me if expressed in units of money. I really don't care.

Please take these alternative viewpoints into consideration, accept them as being just as valid as your own, and perhaps it won't trouble you as much.

+1
I wish I was as articulate as Paul with written word!

Examples? Good question. My point was not to be critical of anyone or anything in particular. I think I could, but I won't.

You probably should. Why beat around the bush and perpetuate this thread?

Unfortunately, as a purely economic point, if top dollar for a best Datsun Roadster is $20,000, or even $25,000, who, in their right mind, would spend that or more to restore one.

Who in their right mind? I can think of dozens. On this forum. On the street. Offline, not even in the community. To say that we are not in the right mind is borderline offensive. I implore you to go to Solvang and walk up to the owners that have restored their roadsters for $$$ and tell them they are out of their mind.

There are many examples of that, but I am not about to identify them specifically.

Please do.

[datsun1500]

This topic comes up every 2 years....

A group of you can get together and tell everybody you know that these are $25,000 cars, that does not make it true. Repeating it over and over, louder and louder, does not make it true. If everyone that owned a 2008 Toyota Corolla got together and announced that they were extremely rare, valuable cars, would that suddenly make the collectors want one?

Prices have gone up and at a better clip in the last 5 years, compared to the previous 10. Anyone else noticed that Healeys have come down in the last 5 years?

Values will rise every year, because the cars get older. I had a 40 something year old car last year, now I have a 50 year old car.

[jamesw]

I think this is a good discussion and I am not offended in the least that it has been revived. I do not actually think we are circling and looping around as things change all the time. For example, a high windshield 1600 just sold for $50K - that is significant and relevant to the discussion. Obviously not just one but MANY people at Amelia Island thought it was worth that much - because it takes minimum two but probably a lot more to bid it up that much.

I don't think Bob was calling anyone crazy for restoring their car. But I know that MY wife would call me crazy to spend $25,000 restoring a car worth $10K When I buy a car, I always take into account what MIGHT happen. For example I could buy a car and lose my job while restoring it. It sure is comforting to know that if something like that happens, I'm not "underwater" on the car and can get my money back.

That's why I just don't understand why people would say "I don't care how much my car is worth, I don't intend to sell it." Well I got news for y'all - $h** happens.

I'll just restate what I said earlier - the more our cars are worth/valued the more of them will be restored. That's a win-win for everyone.

Cheers
James

[FairladySPL]

>That's why I just don't understand why people would say "I don't care how much my car is worth, I don't intend to sell it." Well I got news for y'all - $h** happens.

James, I agree this has been a good discussion. There's also a certain amount of talking past one another, underway, that Bob may come to understand.

Valuation. No one with an appreciation of this car would seek to undercut the market. That's very different than trying to unearth a bargain.

A few years ago on here I misunderstood Alvin when he posited that these cars are somewhat expendable because their current market value isn't that high. I took it to mean he didn't think the cars were worth much.

More accurately, he correctly pointed out that there are enough examples of this car out there to encourage modifications to the taste and needs of the owner. Not a high risk of guilt or feeling judged for making large changes.

That's very different than suggesting the cars are so worthless it doesn't matter what anyone does to them. Yet, that's the way I took it and why I got provoked.

I'm also a little irritated when people, be it Bob or anyone really, fail to recognize the positive impact of our owning these cars, driving them, promoting them at public events, and contributing to articles among print, video, and online media outlets. All of those methods of visibility have been happening more frequently the past 5-10 years than at any time in my ownership. Indeed, those efforts may have contributed to the bidding that topped $50,000 cited in the recent auction.

Bob's stance keeps giving me the impression none of us is doing anything, or enough, to boost the value of these cars. Short of each of us offering him a list of our individual examples, what would satisfy him?

Several of us have pointed out the merit of prolonged, enthusiastic ownership and all the aforementioned activities I just cited.

Yet, and he's entitled to be disappointed, somehow we have failed at that mission because the market is not yet where he believes it should be.

If he or anyone else can answer that discrepancy, I'd like to hear it.

[jamesw]

Good points Paul.

I'm not putting words in Bob's mouth but I got the impression - based on my reading of the discussion about the auction results - that the consensus here was "I wouldn't pay that much for that car." Instead - if we as a group want to promote the car - then the consensus should have been "way to go!"

Cheers
James

[Thomcraft]

Well ya can't say we ain't passionate about our cars whatever side of the driveway yer on!

[spl310]

I think that there can be a bit of "I wouldn't pay that much for that car" and "way to go!" from everyone without affecting the value. I think that the car sold EXTREMELY well. While I did not see the car in person, those that have suggest that it was as close to perfection in a restoration (colors being the personal taste of the restorer). That being said, a very nice example should sell in a similar realm under similar conditions. I thought that the car was beautiful, but the red top would cool me on the car, and the high windshield would put me out of the hunt for it were I a potential buyer. That is the beauty (or ugly side whichever you choose) of the auction market.

[Linda]

Good discussion, I'm not offended Bob is a lawyer I believe, so it probably would take alot more to rattle him tooLOL.
I remember hearing Jay Leno talk about how he has met "alot of guys who put 30,000 in a car and sell for 12K" which i took to mean that there are lots of crazy people out there if you are just judging by the economics. But when someone really likes something it is easy to go overboard in one way or another. Who cares, it is their money/time/passion/cause, whatever.
As for whether I "should" be promoting the value of the car, that is a loaded word for sure. Good luck with that LOL. However, I usually do that by saying it is a cheap tinny car that you can get and restore relatively reasonably and have fun with and actually drive. That actually seems to increase the interest

Linda

[RCMike]

I am going to continue to "promote" the car the only way I know how.. Put gas in it, drive it, especially around audiences that do not really know the roadster, and if anyone wants to buy it, offer to sell it for what it would cost me to build another (plus service fees)..

[Alvin]

Bob is a lawyer I believe, so it probably would take alot more to rattle him tooLOL.
Linda

Open season on lawyer jokes!
What's wrong with lawyer jokes?

[Thomcraft]

The value of my car is the joy it gives me to drive it and the attention it gets. Every May we have an open house where our clients and anyone for that matter can come and see the new boats we are building. People come from all over to view the new designs, some even fly in just for the event. Most of our clients are the "one percent" and those of us who work here are "not". Needless to say a good many of them show up in six figure automobiles. It is almost as much of a car show as it is a boat show. I always take the roadster and guess which car they are milling around more than any other. Just say'n.

Thom.

[datsun1500]

Just because one car sold for $50,000 does not make them all worth that much. A fully restored Gremlin is worth that to someone, that does not mean all Gremlins are, especially to people that don't want a Gremlin. You can tell a MG guy that the Roadster is better, but if he's an MG guy, he's an MG guy. Everyone here is obviously a fan of the car so trying to tell us that a Fiat is a better car does not go over as well as it would on the Fiat board. My 1500 is probably worth more to me than anyone else, because I've had it for so long, and enjoy the memories. If someone asked what it is worth, I'd guess around $20K. Will I sell it for that? Nope.

I have a classic mini as well, its a driver, maybe even on the edge of a "getting rougher driver" when it breaks, I put more money into it, because I enjoy the car. I can get a perfect one and sell this one, but that's not what I want. That's why a lot of us say "I don't care what it's worth" it truly does not matter to us.

If most people looked in my garage, they'd be surprised by the randomness of my cars, but it's what I like that matters, because it's my garage. The tallest thing is the 4 wheeler, it's tied with the Audi at 49 inches

[Alvin]

J The tallest thing is the 4 wheeler, it's tied with the Audi at 49 inches

Pics of the Audi, please!

[Bob]

I admit to the fact that I hoped to provoke this discussion. At the same time, I did not want to be offensive to anyone or to any point of view. All views are always welcome.

My only point is that the value of Datsun Roadsters can be, and almost assuredly is, influenced by this group.

To be clear, I did not say "all" Datsun Roadsters are worth $50,000. I said the very best is worth that, and the recent sale mentioned above is a good indicator that is true. Nor, did I mean to suggest that one would be nuts to spend lots of money to restore a Datsun Roadster. To the contrary, I meant to encourage restoration of Datsun Roadsters. The best way I know to do that is to seek out opinions from this group that restoration makes good economic sense. For example, if someone finds a restorable car for $5,000, and the restoration costs are $20,000, the car, once restored, must be worth at least $25,000, or the restoration does not make economic sense. If the car is deemed to be worth $15,000, the restoration effort lost $10,000. No one wants to lose $10,000.

Do I understand that some restore these cars out of their love and passion for what they are doing? Of course, I do. I applaud that.

But true dollar value is about supply and demand. The supply of these cars, particularly those restored and those restorable, is scarce and becoming more so. The demand, in my view, relative to other similar cars, is increasing, and should increase on merit alone. If I am right about this, value should increase too.

My bottom line, as Datsun Roadster enthusiasts, is that we should be talking up both demand and value, whenever we have the chance. This will eventually lead to the preservation of what is left to enjoy.

Yes. I am a lawyer. And, no. My feelings are not hurt by those who may disagree. It happens frequently.

[jcd0402]

If you are into the car scene be in it for the passion of cars not the passion of cash! Unless you're a car dealer!
Now, I do admit that I would love to see these cars go up in value, for this three reasons. 1) If prices go up parts manufacturing goes up. ( Like Rcmike said.) 2) Who wouldn't like having an awesome looking savings account on wheels for when you end in up at a dead end street? 3) There would be more happy owners driving, and restoring Datsun's. Because when you buy a datsun you become just like a pokemon trainer, YOU GOTTA CATCH THEM ALL.
Now, for the cons of seeing the value go up!
1) Nos Parts get more expensive! 2) People start to get more picky with every car, specially on those with swaps. (The ones that usually cost the most to build!) 3) You start to worry more about it getting crashed or stolen that you don't even take it for a ride and just stare at it.
Now, don't take what I said very PERSONAL since this is just my very OWN opinion.