123 ignition

[JT68]

For a check back in with reality:

123, crankfire and msd are really completely unnecessary for a very solid performing roadster engine.

We used to sell the 123, but no longer do. Like anything it has its pluses and minuses. Its a good unit, there are lots of pluses, but significant minuses too. We may offer them again at some point, or other lower cost programmable options. TBD.

In truth, however, there is little reason for a bluetooth enabled distributor.

The EC and other electronic distributors perform exceptionally well with great reliability. That is why they are so popular.

Points distributors always win in terms of pure simplicity.

Being able to reprogram your distributor from your cell phone is kinda like having an app for your refrigerator. Sure if
you want to optimise the cooling curve for your creme cheese and this is what is important to you, you certainly need an app for your refrigerator too.

There are apps to communicate with your toaster and toothbrush. Really? Who needs that?

No, I'm definitely not a luddite- i grew up programming microcontrollers, so yep, I understand the value of programmability.

But if you understand the way the OEM and EI's work, you really don't need bluetooth to get there.

Same goes for MSD. In reality, minimal benefit. What oem manufacturer uses MSD? A:none
Millions of engines perform brilliantly and extremely efficiently without that.

So if you want need to be able to reprogram your distributor from one stop light to the next, yes 123 is for you, but for the rest of us, reliable EI is excellent.

[Pierre]

Here is my video from my install. Enjoy and feel free to share.

Hey Matt,

Thank you very much for this very complete video !
I learned a lot watching it!!!
Do not hesitate do some other ones

Pierre

[Pierre]

Pierre wrote:
Hey Linda,
The MSD seem to be a very good and easy option as well!
How easy is it to install, do you have a lot of fine tuning to do?

Well, the MSD is pretty easy to install. It is made by the Holley company www.holley.com, long time carb manufacturers.
The system can be triggered either by your points distributor or by an EI distributor. So you connect the distributor then the MSD takes over. I changed to the EI distributor first, from Garry Boone who was making them before Dave Brisco and Tom. This version of the EI has the ignition box on the outside and a larger cap. I noticed an improvement right away. Then after a few years I added the MSD 6A, there is the MSD 6 AL also, digital version. The box is on the passenger side inside the car, up under the dash and against the firewall. I got a piece of tin, put a thin flat metal bar along the bottom and mounted the box to it, then the whole thing to the firewall.
I will take some pics tommorrow to show how it is set up.
But meanwhile, the overview is that there is one wire from the distributor that connects to a MSD white power wire. Then from the MSD box to the coil ( which is a stronger one, MSD Blaster coil, 45,000volts vs 15,000 for a points coil) there is a orange wire and a black wire for the terminals. Then there is a red wire which is placed on one end of the ballast resistor, another red wire from the MsD, same place, and finally the BW w red band wire from the car harness, all in one spot. Also 1 wire each to each battery terminal as shown.
Here is a pic, will get another one tommorrow:
F026CD07-414D-4507-BD6A-1C52BFF10518.jpeg
You can see the white wire connected to the black distributor wire ( trigger) down low below coil, then the orange and black coil wires, and lastly the 2 red and 1 Roadster wire BW with red band at the ballast end.
Last step is to connect 2 of the leftover Roadster wires together. Crude pic before final assembly as I was testing the wiring. I used a protective sleeve once finalized.
C29D765D-64B8-4784-A501-60351DE9D503.jpeg
Wires all come thru the firewall hole no problem.
You need the hotter coil , bigger wires ( I have MSD wires, 8 mm, 8 cylinder kit, unassembled) gives you 2 sets for a good price. Assembly not too hard with little tool provided. Also need a wider spark gap and some suggest a different NGK sparkplug works better, which I have.
Why MSD ? It gives a hotter spark that burns all the fuel. And below a certain RPM, 2000? it gives multiple sparks for a smoother idle. Multiple Spark Discharge.
The box is pretty reliable. The MSD people can check out a used box for you. And you can find used boxes that still work for cheap 60-150 dollars. If a box fails you can convert easily back to points or EI on the side of the road to get you home. There is probably a way to test the box, certainly a auto electric guy would know, or check Google, YouTube. It is a pretty good bang for the buck. Also somewhat programable with a rev limiter, but not like the 123 system.
Others can weigh in on their thoughts and to validate their use of this system., or add what I forgot, or if there is something wrong, but this is my understanding.
A few options for our Roadsters for ignition, each has pros and cons, like everything.
I installed the EI and the MSD, with coaching, and you can too!
Linda

Wow thank you very much for your complete review and instruction on the MSD system.
I will definitely look in to it more closely!!!

Pierre

[theunz]

I, personally have been satisfied with my original points system. I’m sure there’s a benefit to electronic ignition just as there is to fuel injection and 4 wheel antilock disc brakes, stability control, etc. I restored an old car because, well...I wanted to drive an old car with all its quirks and simplicity.
Some want to drive an old car that just looks old, but operates like a modern car. Some just like to fiddle and make improvements. Nothing wrong with either philosophy, they are all interesting.

[Pierre]

For a check back in with reality:

123, crankfire and msd are really completely unnecessary for a very solid performing roadster engine.

We used to sell the 123, but no longer do. Like anything it has its pluses and minuses. Its a good unit, there are lots of pluses, but significant minuses too. We may offer them again at some point, or other lower cost programmable options. TBD.

In truth, however, there is little reason for a bluetooth enabled distributor.

The EC and other electronic distributors perform exceptionally well with great reliability. That is why they are popular.

Points distributors always win in terms of pure simplicity.

Being able to reprogram your distributor from your cell phone is kinda like having an app for your refrigerator. Sure if
you want to optimise the cooling curve for your creme cheese and this is what is important to you, you certainly need an app for your refrigerator too.

There are apps to communicate with your toaster and toothbrush. Really? Who needs that?

No, I'm definitely not a luddite- i grew up programming microcontrollers, so yep, I understand the value of programmability.

But if you understand the way the OEM and EI's work, you really don't need bluetooth to get there.

Same goes for MSD. In reality, minimal benefit. What oem manufacturer uses MSD? A:none
Millions of engines perform brilliantly and extremely efficiently without that.

So if you want need to be able to reprogram your distributor from one stop light to the next, yes 123 is for you, but for the rest of us, reliable EI is excellent.

Hi,

I get your point and you are probably totally right !!
I like the comparaison with the fridge
But I have to admit if there were any app to control my fridge or oven I would probably like it, certainly not need it but I'd would be nice to have to cool my beer down just before I come home

You say there are some significant minuses for the 123 , what are they ?


Pierre

[JT68]

Yep, 99.9% of roadsters will run perfectly on points or standard EI as long as in good condition and properly tuned. Properly tuned is a big part of the equation, and since 99.9% of roadsters run great without 123, Bluetooth clearly isn't a requirement. (BTW well maintained for EI means cap&rotor)

So yes, if you need on-the-fly programming of your distributor... how could one possibly make do with Solexes or especially SU carbs? By extension yes, you gotta have Bluetooth enabled EFI - You MUST be able to remap your fuel curve between stop lights--but probably not in reality.

My intent is not to slam the 123, it is a good unit. It does offer many advantages. You asked for drawbacks, they include:

1. Price
2. Pretty much non-existant technical support. You are on your own - You need to understand both what the engine needs at every load and rpm and all the phone, app, connectivity, Bluetooth magic too. If you are not that guy, a simpler distributor is probably better for you. Call up Tom and be done with it.

3. NO easy source of parts, if anything fails, you'll have to track down 123 for parts. Parts for all other distributors are much easier to source. Local APstore in an emergency.
4. completely non-stock appearance, Ted would not even have to lift the hood for a DQ.
5. Non Datsun cap and rotor see 2,3 and 4
6. it has a microprocessor. If anything ever makes it unhappy, glitch, voltage spike, ground fault, they tend to reset or crash. If that happens, I don't know if it has a "limp home" mode or not like modern car ECU's. Maybe, maybe not. This type behavior is impossible with points or standard EI.
Ever had your phone lock up?
7. Mis-programming can harm your engine. See#2
8. Kiss principle. Everything about it is more complicated in general. The more complex a system, the more likelihood of a fault/lockup/failure

On a humorous note, if you are a survivalist, after the Russians (and the US) finish testing their latest generation of EMP weapons, , the only cars that will start are those with carbs and points

[bakerjf]

On a humorous note, if you are a survivalist, after the Russians (and the US) finish testing their latest generation of EMP weapons, , the only cars that will start are those with carbs and points

Haha, I’ve been telling my wife that for years. It’s points for me, but that’s because I’m an originality nerd.

[fj20spl311]

JT is correct that there is little need to change the advance curve on the fly.
The reason for the Bluetooth connection is ease of connectivity, but one more thing to fail.

The advance curve I use is pretty much "standard", i.e. set it to the manual and I rarely change the advance curve. If you use an externally set advance, you need to "lock" the advance in the distributor.
If you use a distributor with or without points, you should rebuild the distributor and have it tested on a distributor machine if you can find one. LOL

[ppeters914]

If you use a distributor with or without points, you should rebuild the distributor and have it tested on a distributor machine if you can find one. LOL

LOL indeed. My brother-in-law scored one from a shop going out of business years ago.

[Gregs672000]

Much wisdom spoken here! While it's "cool" and fun to play with, the ONLY reason I run the crank fired megajolt is because I HAVE TO. The best system I ever ran before the high compression engine forced my change was an EI dizzy with a Jacobs Pro-Street ignition box and Ultra coil... now THAT sucker worked.
The best mod is the EI dizzy. The only drawback is the inherent slop in timing due to all the gears and mechanical bits, etc, and a stock engine won't care about that. It WILL like the stronger spark of the EI.

[AidanDawn2000]

I've already written a pretty good amount about the 123 that I've been running in my '69 2000 for the last 3 years; try the search to read more. Long story short Brian Kippen owns his own machine shop and so worked with 123 to build drop in units using cnc parts and roadster cores.
Main selling 'points' for me are:

-In the summer I used to have major issues with pinging (head has been skimmed a bit and california 91oct isn't too great) but with the 123 I can very very easily adapt my curve to make her happy and also go as fast as possible
Basically I have a summer and a winter curve saved, and can jump between them in a few seconds. Also I can elongate the curve and push maximum advance higher in the rev range instead of having everything by like ~ 3k as is stock which helps.

-With how expensive all the other EI options are paying ~$30% more for 100% more tech seems like a good deal

-My 123 has been 100% reliable with zero problems to report (literally haven't popped the cap off it in 3 years of daily driver duties) And it gets better with each new update on the app...can't say either of those things about the east coast EI I had before (sorry Tom;)

- Has some very cool features on top of just being able to make your own curve such as anti theft (shut down your engine and keep it locked from your phone) and being able to have an engine redline cutoff can save you $$$ when you let your dad drive your roadster and he gets his boots stuck on the gas peddle in the tiny pedal compartment lol

-Adapting to new conditions (ambient temp, road trip to new state that has better/worse gas grades, adapting to new cam/jets when tuning for the smoothest idle)

I have no idea if Brian has any left or plans to make another run but i'm a fan!

[Pierre]

Yep, 99.9% of roadsters will run perfectly on points or standard EI as long as in good condition and properly tuned. Properly tuned is a big part of the equation, and since 99.9% of roadsters run great without 123, Bluetooth clearly isn't a requirement. (BTW well maintained for EI means cap&rotor)

So yes, if you need on-the-fly programming of your distributor... how could one possibly make do with Solexes or especially SU carbs? By extension yes, you gotta have Bluetooth enabled EFI - You MUST be able to remap your fuel curve between stop lights--but probably not in reality.

My intent is not to slam the 123, it is a good unit. It does offer many advantages. You asked for drawbacks, they include:

1. Price
2. Pretty much non-existant technical support. You are on your own - You need to understand both what the engine needs at every load and rpm and all the phone, app, connectivity, Bluetooth magic too. If you are not that guy, a simpler distributor is probably better for you. Call up Tom and be done with it.

3. NO easy source of parts, if anything fails, you'll have to track down 123 for parts. Parts for all other distributors are much easier to source. Local APstore in an emergency.
4. completely non-stock appearance, Ted would not even have to lift the hood for a DQ.
5. Non Datsun cap and rotor see 2,3 and 4
6. it has a microprocessor. If anything ever makes it unhappy, glitch, voltage spike, ground fault, they tend to reset or crash. If that happens, I don't know if it has a "limp home" mode or not like modern car ECU's. Maybe, maybe not. This type behavior is impossible with points or standard EI.
Ever had your phone lock up?
7. Mis-programming can harm your engine. See#2
8. Kiss principle. Everything about it is more complicated in general. The more complex a system, the more likelihood of a fault/lockup/failure

On a humorous note, if you are a survivalist, after the Russians (and the US) finish testing their latest generation of EMP weapons, , the only cars that will start are those with carbs and points

I have to say the part that worries me the moast is the (.6), if anything makes it unhappy.
What happens if there is a glitch, voltage fail as you say.
Does it have like a safe mode or at least does the app gives a warning?
I get you worries about all the digital stuff at least the mechanic stuff always works.
But then again how much digital stuff do we use every day and we would not want to switch Bach to anlog/mechanical.

[Pierre]

I've already written a pretty good amount about the 123 that I've been running in my '69 2000 for the last 3 years; try the search to read more. Long story short Brian Kippen owns his own machine shop and so worked with 123 to build drop in units using cnc parts and roadster cores.
Main selling 'points' for me are:

-In the summer I used to have major issues with pinging (head has been skimmed a bit and california 91oct isn't too great) but with the 123 I can very very easily adapt my curve to make her happy and also go as fast as possible
Basically I have a summer and a winter curve saved, and can jump between them in a few seconds. Also I can elongate the curve and push maximum advance higher in the rev range instead of having everything by like ~ 3k as is stock which helps.

-With how expensive all the other EI options are paying ~$30% more for 100% more tech seems like a good deal

-My 123 has been 100% reliable with zero problems to report (literally haven't popped the cap off it in 3 years of daily driver duties) And it gets better with each new update on the app...can't say either of those things about the east coast EI I had before (sorry Tom;)

- Has some very cool features on top of just being able to make your own curve such as anti theft (shut down your engine and keep it locked from your phone) and being able to have an engine redline cutoff can save you $$$ when you let your dad drive your roadster and he gets his boots stuck on the gas peddle in the tiny pedal compartment lol

-Adapting to new conditions (ambient temp, road trip to new state that has better/worse gas grades, adapting to new cam/jets when tuning for the smoothest idle)

I have no idea if Brian has any left or plans to make another run but i'm a fan!

A friend of mine has a it in a 240z an is as convinced about it as you are .
I guess I am willing to give it a try if I can get one at a reasonable price!

[Linda]

Might as well play, Pierre! It's your car, your money. Appreciate all viewpoints here.
Up to Pierre now.
Come back and post what your experience is do we can learn.
Good luck !