Gregs672000 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:28 am
I'm at work so I cannot hear this super well, but to me it sounds like valve slap, ie too much lash. What happens if you tighten them down more? What lash are you running? As long as you have some lash, you will be fine, so don't worry about tightening them up some more just to see what happens. Do leave some lash so the valve seats, but just try this to see if it makes any difference. I suspect something in the valve train, though I am very unfamiliar with push rod engines vs the U20. If you had not taken the head off and had it inspected already, I would be wondering about a loose valve seat. I see they replaced springs and seals, but no mention of valve seats. The original were brass and they heat at different rates than the head, causing them to have more chance to come loose and slap about. I can't imagine that they did not notice one, especially since I would assume they recut them, but you never know. Your problem was with #3, and it sounds like the noise is at the back part of the engine. I have no idea how you could check for a loose seat without pulling the head again... only thing I can think of is to pull the carbs, get a snake style inspection camera (harbor freight?), put each valve such that it is open and off the seat, and see if you can detect any problem, maybe be able to push against it with a thin screw driver (?). It does not sound like a rod knock, which will typically change with RPM changes (reving). Sounds like one cylinder... I would concentrate on rockers, pushrods, valves and seats. Sorry to hear, but least you are capable of fixing it! (engine looked great BTW).
So heres a shot of the head this is after valves replaced. And also as shot when head was removed after the first time of hearing noise. I was initially and am still a little concerned as to why the head was peaned around the seats as you can see. I took back to him
He said all was okay but i still wonder. I did not disassemble my self. (No spring compressor) but may invest in one.
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That is a clear impact make on the valve. Does you new cam have more lift? It could also be the valve retainer hitting the guide. It needs to come apart....I personally think you made a mistake using the old pistons because the ring was broken.
Phil
67.5 SRL311-00148 Blue (FJ cruiser VOODOO Blue)
67.5 SPL311 FJ20E teal SDS EFI
69 SRL311 SOLD
19 Raptor SCAB
Phil, I think that is just a reflection off an oil drop. Eric, as i mentioned in my first post and Greg mentions as well, it kinda sounds like valve lash. My R16 sounds like a singer sewing machine even when I set the lash hot or cold. it could very well be more to it (and I would trust your intuition) but if it were me I would double check for any weirdness in the top end and also make triple sure the lash is correct.
fj20spl311 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:20 am
That is a clear impact make on the valve. Does you new cam have more lift? It could also be the valve retainer hitting the guide. It needs to come apart....I personally think you made a mistake using the old pistons because the ring was broken.
thanks for input , cam is std lift. and yes reflection after cleaning cyl head def no sings of impact on valve faces or pistons. trust me when i looked w my borescope before pulling i thought i saw something , was just reflection from cyl wall.
And yes i would have replaced pistons and still may , just at 650.00 a set I held off as there was no damaged to cyl wall, ring lands all were ok and cyl wall to piston clearance was in spec.
but i think you are right im going to pull head tonight and disassemble myself and check and maybe pull pistons and check wrist pins. though i dont have new snap rings... and have heard they should always be replaced( though these are new). and just look . and lastly still think best maybe to swap heads, will narrow down between top end and lower.
GeoffM wrote: ↑Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:26 am
Phil, I think that is just a reflection off an oil drop. Eric, as i mentioned in my first post and Greg mentions as well, it kinda sounds like valve lash. My R16 sounds like a singer sewing machine even when I set the lash hot or cold. it could very well be more to it (and I would trust your intuition) but if it were me I would double check for any weirdness in the top end and also make triple sure the lash is correct.
I agree completely on triple checking the top end first.
I have heard a very similar sound that turned out to be a loose guide and rocker interaction.
Phil
67.5 SRL311-00148 Blue (FJ cruiser VOODOO Blue)
67.5 SPL311 FJ20E teal SDS EFI
69 SRL311 SOLD
19 Raptor SCAB
david premo wrote: ↑Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:55 am
Sounds like the rocker arm/arms are making noise.
one thing to mention i did run it with valve cover off , noise was no more predominant . even with light hand pressure on rockers( not really a valid test )
The peaning around the seats were designed to help keep the seat in is my understanding, also something my head guy said was unnecessary. Very commonly seen on R16 and U20s. I do not see any piston to valve impacts. I do note what appear to be brass seats. It has a rocker arm/valve sound to me... a smaller thinner piece of metal "tap tap" sound. As Phil noted, could be the guides moving in the head, a rocker that is making some kind of contact, funky push rod, or a loose valve seat. In my mind (that's a scary place!) a wrist pin would not sound like this and would be more of a grinding sound don't ya think? The pin would not slap, it would move to one side and scrape against the cylinder wall, no? Even if it were moving side to side and somehow causing it to tap the wall, I do not think it would be this consistent. Borrow, purchase or rent a spring compressor (I think the harbor freight one will work ok for the R since you have a lot of room, otherwise use a c-clamp style) and pull it apart, but don't dig into the bottom end yet...
Just had a chance to listen to the video on my home computer. Please do tighten the valve lash to say 8 intake and 10 exhaust, or tighter. 17 lash seems like a heck of a lot. Might be spec, but so long as you have some lash and account for temperature changes you will be fine. Set them cold and check them hot. A U20 loosens as it heats, opposite of what it says in the manual. Granted, different engine and I don't know what the R16 does. Is it getting oil up top?
did you switch oil to thinner ? or put zink in with it for your new cam? thicker oil will quiet that up . I had that sound until I went thicker . till sound like it's hitting the valve cover almost huh ... try that . your hearing an entirely new motors sounds it sound like to me . like mine did at first when I put it together after total rebuild .. good luck . hope it's simple ..
What is being referred to as peening is more commonly referred to as staking and is commonly used when replacing valve seats on aluminum heads to help insure that the seats stay put. There is even a special tool for staking. It is not always done because some say that it shouldn't be necessary and that it could cause the seat to deform. I have had two aluminum heads rebuilt and both were staked. Staking is also commonly used to hold fasteners in place such as a nut on a stud or bolt when the surface of the nut is flush with the end of the bolt.
located in Chester NH
1967 1600 in restoration
2013 Arctic Cat F-1100 turbo
Ford F-350 6.0
Ford 9000 puller, Ford 960 puller, Ford 901show, Ford 971 worker, Oliver 70 waiting its turn
Just another thought. Your head looks shaved to about the same point as mine. When I measured the head thickness it was right at the minimal limit. I set the head on the block without pushrods or head bolts. As I turned the engine over the pistons would lift the head. I started adding shims between the head and block until the pistons no longer hit the head. This was with all the valves closed so the shims would equal the minimum need for just the piston to head clearance. It ended up that I needed to use one of Dean's extra thick head gasket for clearance and to keep the compression ratio near stock.
I am not saying this is the source of your noise but you could have troubles with pre-ignition and tuning later with the higher compression ratio.
Here are pics of my head-
IMG_3174.jpg
IMG_3172.jpg
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+1///it doesn't take much head surfacing to allow the OE domes to hit the head 1600 "domed" pistons.
there should be zero rocker noise at .012"-- sounds too loud a (to me) for rockers, but kinda hard to tell on computer speakers.
seriously doubt its a wrist pin lifter, seat, rocker etc.
if you go to the trouble of removing the pistons, you should prob cut the domes off (lathe). --fyi new std. pistons almost NEVER clearance properly
in a used bore--will smoke/rings never seat.
+2! I was kinda wondering how much the head was cut, but I thought they looked for contact the first time? If it's contacting, would the gasket solve the problem?
