4 speed info

[jarhead]

I have my engine/transmission out for clutch replacement. I had a problem with second gear popping out of gear so I'm thinking of diving into my transmission given lack of funds (son's college tuition) and lack of finding a local knowledgable mechanic. First transmission....teeth chattering. But I've gone through everything else so far without so what the hell.......

I have the roadster manual, which gives a basic verbal outline but what I really need is PICTURES. I saw a nice reference on the WIKI for 5 speed but not four speed. Anyone have any useful information/links?

[notoptoy]

My first ever shot at tackling a transmission was the Roadster 4 speed, and it wasn't too hard. I did it without pictures, and using only a factory manual and a Chilton manual. BUT, after putting quite a bit of money into it (I was new to Roadsters and unaware of all the resources here at 311s.org) and effort, I should have tried to find one of the many spares available for under $100 and moved on. If it's not a "simple" (Read cost effective) fix, scout for another to swap in. Preferably a known good, perhaps from someone who has swapped out a perfectly good 4 speed for a 5 speed.

[cktrap]

good advice

[JT68]

yep really good advice. Roadster 4-speeds are a notoriously bad investment.
If you pay someone to rebuild that one you'll spend 1k+ on a trans that MIGHT be worth 250$ all said and done.

Try to find a guaranteed-money back- swear it is good, running 4speed. If they aren't POSITIVE it is good, walk away.
Then check the counter gear in it before install.

--or-- plan to upgrade to a rebuilt 5-speed -- at least if you do that you will have a trans that retains some value in the long run - old 4-speeds are basically scrap. j

[Linda]

I don't think 4 speeds are all that available these days. Plus trying to guarantee one at 100-250? Not unless it was rebuilt, it is basically a core.
They would sell better but the problem is shipping, I think.
Counter gear shaft check and replace is easy enough though
Linda

[JT68]

Linda, I have 8 or so, would you like 4? Package deal...

But you are quite right the only way you would get a "known good one" is if someone is pulling it to upgrade and has driven the car extensively, knowing all is well, not grinding 2nd etc. Even like that, it is still a used 4-speed transmission, so likely only worth 200, 3, 500max imho. A UFO (unknown 4-speed object) is suitable for parting out or as a small boat anchor.....

[jarhead]

Hmmm. Good info. I guess if I'll dive in. What do I have to lose? Its not that fun to drive the way second gear functions now.

[JT68]

Not much to lose. We can help:

Suggest you power wash it first-makes it more fun/less messy //Also dump out all the 90W (out the back is fine) so it doesn't dump on you.

The first thing to do is assess the swinging counter/cluster gear and plan to correct that. Remove the bottom pan and the front cover. Good to have
a big pan under the whole thing since more 90W will bleed out as you open it up.

With those covers off you will be able to remove the cluster gear shaft and gear. The counter (or cluster) gear is the big 4-gear unit hanging down below the main shaft. (Closest to the bottom cover) It has two thrust washers that locate it in the case front-to-rear. After you remove the front cover you will see the end of the cluster gear shaft. - it will have either a notch in the end or a cotter pin - that will also tell us if it is a servo or warner trans. If you pull that shaft out the front, the thrust washers will drop into the case and the gear can be removed. Don't let the gear drop out onto concrete etc. Then you will inspect the shaft. It should be perfect, no galling or destruction. There are needle bearings inside the front and rear of the cluster gear. Collect the two thrust washers and all the bits- that is the cluster gear removal. You can post photos of the shaft-typically there is obvious carnage. Check the cluster for missing teeth too.

At this point you are only needing some needle bearings, prob the shaft, and a gasket kit unless you find obvious destruction.Not terribly expensive yet.

Once you have done all this you can also rotate the gears and look for broken/missing teeth. hopefully none. j

[notoptoy]

Big double "watch it" on dropping the gears. I dropped one 6 inches into the stainless steel parts washer bin and a chunk of the gear dropped out. Needless to say, I handled everything with kid gloves after that. I truly don't know how it could have happened, but it did. Crazy to think that something that takes all that torque and abuse could "bruise" so easily but it happened to me!

[Linda]

JT,
No thanks, I have 2. I was going to ask you, lol
Not sure but I think the Warner needle bearings are getting hard to find for the counter on the Warner box. Or perhaps it is the new countershaft itself. I would start with sourcing the parts.
I got mine from Ross as I recall
Linda

[Linda]

What is the range in parts for a total 4 speed rebuild excluding labor?
Linda

[JT68]

Linda is correct, many of the tranny parts are hard to source. For the cluster gear the absolute critical part is the shaft and as mentioned there are two styles- the earlier 1/2 cut-notch type and the cotter pin type. It will be obvious when you see the end of the shaft.

If cotter pin type, the box is a Warner and at least syncros can be had for "cheaper" - if 12/shaft notch, it is a servo synchro box.

You must have at the very minimum an essentially perfect counter gear shaft or this is all a waste of time. Suggest you find out which style you have and locate a new shaft unless miraculously yours is undamaged- exactly perfect. More than likely servo type, but you never know.

Most vendors can prob provide the shaft/needles. I think that Warner shaft will be scarce+expensive. You need to know which type you have regardless.

After that, the thing to decide if if your budget allows rebuild/repair of the main shaft& gear assemblies and to what extent.

[Linda]

An excellent link with pics:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22975&hilit=Warner+tranny
Linda

[notoptoy]

Note that in that link, in 2014, the poster saw "$500-$1000" in parts. Again, in my opinion, a 4-speed is not worth that investment. I know I had upwards of $400 to $600 in mine 20 years ago. I would not do that again.

[JT68]

Agree.

Where I was hoping to lead him was just eliminate the chronic counter gear problem and perhaps just replace or turn around 2nd gear synchro. Maybe 1st gear too if up for the extra spending. Only fix what is damaged, put in some very good gear lube and hope for the best. - This assumes there were zero 3&4th gear issues and no big chunks of metal in the pan.

Counter gear failure leads to most 4-speed catastophes. If you fix the counter gear often the 4-speed will work at least "OK".

In years gone by one would replace all the synchros and all/most bearings while you were in there, but rational folks would not do that on a 4 speed anymore- clearly keeping cost down is of primary importance here. One can also get lower cost synchros from Stan, but I have not personally tried them.

If it turns out to need gears, or the plan becomes all 4 syncros + other parts, I'd find a 5-speed instead personally.